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WTB 365 GT4 2+2/400/412

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by 180 Out, Jan 8, 2012.

  1. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula Junior

    Jan 4, 2012
    996
    St. Louis, Missouri
    Full Name:
    Bill Henley
    I am hoping to join the owners club of these Ferrari 2+2's. I am posting this in case there is an owner out there who's been thinking about selling and maybe would pull the trigger with this little nudge.

    My preferences are for stick shifts and carburetors, but a car with an automatic and FI would also be much loved. Because I live in California I also prefer a California-registered car. That's not a factor for model years of '75 or older, because those early years aren't subject to Smog Check. Also, if anyone has personal experience that bringing into Cali cars from model years of '76 and newer is not a problem, then I would be willing to be talked out of my preference for Cali-registered cars.

    My other big preference is for a car that's ready to drive. I've done project cars all my life, since the early '70's, and at the moment I'm a little burned out at the idea of taking on another. A car that's taken out regularly and feels solid and everything works, that's what I'm looking for.

    So I ask you, 365 GT4 2+2/400/412 forum members, if you have such a car or if you know of such a car, please reply or shoot me a personal message. Thanks in advance.
     
  2. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    i think you're going about this the right way Bill...good luck in your search and i'm sure there is a California car out there waiting for you.

    brett
     
  3. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula Junior

    Jan 4, 2012
    996
    St. Louis, Missouri
    Full Name:
    Bill Henley
    Yesterday I did some web searching, including on this wonderful site, using a query like "import California," and my conclusion is that it's not worth it to try to register a so-called 49-state vehicle in California. The process includes taking the car to a private lab to test the car's emissions and make recommendations for fixes, at a cost of $3,500 per test. Then you make the fixes and you go to a state employed Smog Check Referee. If the Referee finds that your car passes the standards applicable to its model year -- e.g., the standards applicable to a 308 GTB of that year -- then you get a Bureau of Auto Repair (BAR) sticker and you're good. But there's also a possibility of failing the Smog Check. This would send you back to the private lab for another $3,500 session. And if the State makes a final decision to fail your car, you have to sell it out of the state. Maybe all this would be in insignificant addition to the price of admission for a 512BB, but the dollars and the hassles are prohibitive for the 365 GT4 2+2/400/412 cars.

    So yeah, I'm sticking with registered California cars.
     
  4. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,200
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    #4 full_garage, Jan 9, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Yeah for sure you need to ensure you have the CARB sticker- Here's a picture of the one on my 412-

    Wise words on the "Project Car" topic- Cars like these that have bottomed out regarding depreciation, but are still too new to begin the "Classic" car price inflation are not really great candidates for expensive restoration. PLENTY of good clean cars around.

    If you are realistic that a great car is more of a $30K+ venture than a $15K one, you'll be in good shape.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  5. F1111

    F1111 Rookie

    Jun 12, 2008
    29
    GTA
    Full Name:
    Brian
    that's good advice, because you can't win buying a tired $25K 400/400i when you can buy a really decent one for $35-40K.
    expect to pay more for a really nice, service current 5-speed with no needs.
    this series is no exception to Ferrari 'golden-rule', which is, pay now or pay later.
    if you buy a 'cheap' car, it's because the owner didn't maintain it, period, because if he forked out the money to maintain it, then he wouldn't part with it cheaply, period.
     
  6. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 23, 2007
    4,738
    North Pole AK
    Hi Jay, I will have to disagree with you about the "plenty" of good cars out there. I guess it depends on what you're looking for. If you want carbs and a five speed there are shockingly few out there. If you want a 75 or older the "pool" shrinks even farther. From what I have heard there are 17 365gt4s in North America and not all of those are 75 and older. If you're looking for a 400 with carbs and 5 speed there are 3 in the US. It makes the Daytona as common place as a Camry! I really wonder why they are so inexpensive.
     
  7. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    i too have to disagree with you Jay...in fact, it seems to contradict what you learned from your own exhaustive search.
    i know you found a great 412 Automatic in your abovementioned price range, but wasn't it the clear exception during your search, rather than the rule ?

    as you've said Jim, it isn't difficult to find automatic, 400's, 400i's or 412's...although it is difficult to find good ones...
    but good luck finding a great 365 GT4 or 400GT in North America...or even Europe.
    if anyone knows of either of these 2 models for sale, regardless of condition, please let me know.

    brett, 705-4351990
     
  8. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,200
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    Brett and Jim-

    I think what I've stated reinforces my own very well documented search-

    But let me take back the term "Plenty"- obviously there are NOT plenty of cars- there are almost none in fact when compared to all of the other marques people seek- But there ARE cars.

    Just being realistic that a $30,000 car is a decent car that will more than likely require major investment to be reliable enough to enjoy. The real price for a good clean auto 412 is close to $40K- 5 speed 412 close to $50K. I know this because I saw every single car available.

    Buy a $15K car and you'll need to sink $30-$60K into it to make it "right". I honestly think a $60,000 restored car is still a hell of a value as a driver, but foolish given the resale value unless money is truly no object.

    That said there is practically ZERO market for great cars- If I put my 412 on ebay- and this is probably the BEST auto 412 in North America- 18,000 miles and almost NEW inside and out- running 16" TR wheels and PERFECT paint and glass and mechanically completely sorted- I doubt I could get $35,000 for it. I would imagine plenty of offers for $25,000...Doesn't matter- the car is never leaving my side.

    My rebuilt 400i 5-speed was around for 6 months- Everybody here had the opportunity to buy it- the guy was so desperate that it only took $30K to buy a car that had probably $70K in restoration costs.

    I've seen a half dozen really, really nice auto 412s on ebay in the past year- in every case the dealer who owned the car was looking for right around $40K... none sold- They take them to auction and they close at $28K + commission.

    Cars are around and if you can spend $35K you should be able to grab a really nice car.

    The cars that we look down our noses at today will be HIGHLY sought after in the very near future- crappy US cars from the 70s are selling for big money because they have "Chrome bumpers'- as if that is some line in the sand- Keep in mind the entire idea of a car as a simple device with an engine and seats is GONE forever. Soon cars with reasonably modern performance characteristics without nav screens and built-in "intelligent controls" will be desirable... and none more so than Ferraris from the 70s and 80s.
     
  9. F1111

    F1111 Rookie

    Jun 12, 2008
    29
    GTA
    Full Name:
    Brian
    Not to be contradictory Full Garage, but i seem to remember you describing car after car that was misrepresented and in need of all kinds work due to deferred maintanence.
    At least that's the way that it came across and, btw, the way that i believe it really is out there. I don't believe that they were maintained worse by their first or second owner than the Daytona's, Boxer's and TR's that they were manufactured along side, it's just that as they've changed hands over the years their depreciating value has resulted in neglect.
    When service time arrives, they've often put up for sale rather than serviced.
    Having said that, there are many, many Boxer's and TR's that are sow's ears dressed up like silk purses.

    i agree with most of what you said in your post above.
     
  10. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,200
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    Yeah they're all going to be somewhat like that- But I am talking about the difference between a $15-$17,000 car with "Needs" vs a clean, rustfree car with excellent interior and a clean, neat engine bay- Still gonna need $$ to bring it up to snuff because let these cars sit for a few years... and you'll pay.

    Unless you buy a car from one of us here that is driven regularly... you'll find issue from inactivity.
     
  11. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    #11 brettski, Jan 10, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2012
    sorry Jay, you can't take back "Plenty"...you posted it on the internet, so not only is it 'true', but it's also cast in stone ! ; )

    but, even though your 400i likely had $70K into it's refresh, wasn't there still a bunch of sorting required to trully make it 'right' ?

    actually, i recall that being a 'common thread' in your posts during and after your search...
    that there were a number of cars that looked 'right', but once you were behind the wheel, they weren't...sluggish performance, knocks, creaks, general all-around 'slop'...

    whether carbed or automatic, a 400 needs to be 'right', or it feels no better than a bagged out 7 series Bimmer....which is only marginally less expensive to run than a Ferrari.
     
  12. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2007
    2,158
    Tampa bay
    Full Name:
    Bruce
    A minor correction...I think you mean BAR sticker (Bureau of Auto Repair).

    And may I add, it's for the record eternally.
     
  13. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 23, 2007
    4,738
    North Pole AK
    Boy oh boy what a tough crowd!
     
  14. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,200
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    Brett

    Yeah about 100 hours of my time, couple of grand worth of parts and another $6K at my trusty indy to rebuild the fuel distributors, set the vale timing and reset all the fuel injection to factory spec.

    But Brett you're absolutely right- I don't think there is an ebay car or a dealer-offered car that is running well- at least compared to a really sorted car.

    But both cars are perfect now and I'm always so impressed at how quick and brawny they feel- and how much fun it is to whip them around a corner- Winter has not arrived here yet so today I took the 400i on a 150 mile round trip- Just a great car!
     
  15. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    excellent, glad to hear it !
     
  16. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,200
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    Brett-

    You and I are both in a position to know- lots of people have been underwhelmed by underperforming Ferrari 12s- but when setup properly thesee cars are an absolute blast.

    What is amazing is how GOOD the 400i sounds now- I went from a loud and brawny Stebro to a smooth and refined (And flat out gorgeous) Timevalve OEM style system- but when you punch it the car absolutely roars- even with FI.

    Supposed to be in the 50s here for a few days so the old girls are gonna get out and play a bit.
     
  17. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Sep 5, 2002
    27,974
    MA
    Full Name:
    John
    Here we are mid-January and no snow in CT since Halloween. Been out driving every week and hoping to keep that up throughout the winter, just like the winter several years ago (2000?).

    Enzo Ferrari's famous quote comes to mind here: "I don't care if the door gaps are straight. When the driver steps on the gas I want him to **** his pants."

    The 400i can definitely cause a trip to the dry cleaners!
     
  18. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,200
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    John-

    I think we tempt fate here in New England whenever we say "Can you believe there's no snow"... after last season I'll take as many salt-free days as possible.

    Taking the 400i out right now...
     
  19. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2007
    2,158
    Tampa bay
    Full Name:
    Bruce
    Aaww 'come on man' (again coming from a comedic standpoint), I was only following up on brettski's humor. Check my thousand some-odd posts in my stats & you find that I never replied to a poster in a tough manner.
     
  20. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    i'm a hard act to follow Bruce.
     
  21. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2007
    2,158
    Tampa bay
    Full Name:
    Bruce
    LOL, & I guess maybe I could be too.

    & maybe I should take some responsibility, the written word isn't the same as talking, gotta use those lol's, ;-), etc. to set things straight. At the time, I thought it was a little redundant after quoting u.
     
  22. mrp_e

    mrp_e Formula Junior

    Dec 19, 2003
    594
    NYC, BRK, PlmSprngs
    Full Name:
    Bill
    i remember seeing a brown with tan 365 on ebay at least twice and i think the BIN was something like 30's, high 30s at most, and i thought it was just out of synch and reality. great condition, looked great, sounded great, for that price - ridiculous. where is that car now?!
     
  23. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula Junior

    Jan 4, 2012
    996
    St. Louis, Missouri
    Full Name:
    Bill Henley
    The seller of the car in this thread -- http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=351415 -- is now down to $15,000, and he's going to get a transmission service done, put on some new cats, and get it to pass Smog Check prior to sale. If this work gets that motor running strong it seems like a good deal.
     
  24. carguy246

    carguy246 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2006
    930
    Maryland
    I own a 5-speed 412 that I have been thinking of selling to make room for something else. The car only has 14k miles. Blue sera exterior with blue interior. Huge service about 6 years ago including new tires, other service since then.

    Car was sold new through Walnut Creek Ferrari in California, but I don't think it will pass smog currently. It was sold new to a buyer in Nevada and I don't believe it has a CA bar sticker. The cats have been removed, but I don't know if it would need anything else to pass smog. Car is in excellent condition as you would expect based on the mileage although not perfect, it is extremely nice. If anyone is interested let me know.

    Thanks.
     

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