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Workshop manual Ferrari 400GT

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by Arvid, Dec 6, 2013.

  1. Arvid

    Arvid Formula Junior
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    #1 Arvid, Dec 6, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
    I may have a cam timing problem on my car. To rule out this issue I have to check timing properly. I would then need a workshop manual with the correct spec and pictures.... And this is nowhere to be found at the moment.....

    Possibly manuals from 400i - 365 GT4 2+2 - GTC/4 - Daytona have the same info ? I am not sure

    Does any of you have this information either as a pdf file or on paper ? Or maybe a thorrough explenation of the set up via mail or in this thread ?

    Thanks :)
     
  2. GT Jones

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    Have you looked through 365gtc4.com ?
     
  3. Arvid

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    Thanks,but could not find anything there.

    I have found a WS manual for 400i but I am not sure if I can use these cam timing data on a 400. The static ignition is not the same 8 dgr. vs 11 dgr. But maybe the valve gear position is the same ?
     
  4. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    For the "specs" of both cam timing and ignition timing, the F OM corresponding to your year/model/version F has to be your first resource. The WSMs tend to be printed only once (if ever ;)), early in the model's life, so are only a subset of information that doesn't evolve. Not saying that the OMs are all error-free, but it's where F recorded tried to record the small functional and evolutionary changes (if any) that occurred during a model's life.

    That said, I can nearly guarantee that a carbed engine (with ignition system A) will be (maybe significantly) different from a CIS engine (with ignition system B) for both of those parameters -- your homework (www.ferraridatabase.com)...
     
  5. theobordeaux

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  6. galbert

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  7. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Arvid- All the ignition timing and cam timing information you need is in the 400 GT owners manual.
     
  8. galbert

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  9. Arvid

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    Thanks Steve.

    Yes,I know the two will probably not be equal when comes to timing. My thought was that with manuals from both 400i and 365 GT4 2+2 it would give me enough data to complete the job. Probably the GT4 2+2 and GTC/4 are the manuals I need most.

    Theodore,

    Thanks for the link. I know this will be useful :)
     
  10. Arvid

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    Ignition timing yes,but cam timing ?

    Page 72 shows a nice picture of timing gear but no description on "how-to". I know the lower drive has markings,I know the cams have markings under the cam covers and I know how they should line up.

    What I want is a complete "how-to" from A to B to assist me when I do the job :)
     
  11. rustytractor

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    #11 rustytractor, Dec 7, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  12. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    Now you ask for too much ;)...
     
  13. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

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    I didn't realise you had the manual......
     
  14. Arvid

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    I am hopeful ;-)

    The job is not that frightful. It's probably quite doable with the valve open/close data,a TDC clock and meassuring degree at the lower drive. As I understand the valve clearence must be correct prior to the cam timing. Correct ?

    I just thought it was a good idea to have the proper documentation at hand for support along the job. In there I could find all the original upper/lower markings,how to adjust cam wheels (if adjustable),how to inspect and approve chain,how to thighten chain correctly etc....

    Maybe I am asking to much :)
     
  15. Arvid

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    Oh yes,and it's been studied. Thanks though :)
     
  16. Steve Magnusson

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    The cam timing is specified as "the event (opening or closing) occurs when the valve first moves (opening), or stops moving (closes) when at the exact, particular clearance of 0.5mm" which is not the operating clearance -- but as long as you know/measure what the clearance is (and it doesn't necessarily have to be the operating clearance nor the 0.5mm value) you can apply some math and compensate so that the "event" occurs at the exact same place on the cam lobe profile (which is the important thing). For example:

    If the intake valve clearance is set to be 0.5 mm = "opening" occurs when the intake valve first moves, or

    If the intake clearance is at an operating clearance of 0.4 mm = "opening" occurs when the intake valve has moved a distance of 0.1 mm, or

    If the intake valve clearance is X mm = "opening" occurs when the intake valve has moved a distance of (0.5 - X) mm
     
  17. simonc

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    Yes, correct. The 400i WSM (as opposed to teh owners manual) describes this in point 8 in the list on page B55 in the manual (attached below - PM if you need a full PDF or even just the engine section)

    The procedure is the same for both 400 and 400i. The timing data for the 400 is in the owners manual and it is different to the 400i - see these pages on the 400 Register website (my site but not updated for many years. The data is from the owner manuals - again PM me if you want copies)

    400 data - The Ferrari 400 Register - 400

    400i data - The Ferrari 400 Register - 400i
     
  18. simonc

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    Sorry the attachment for page B55 disappeared (removed by Fchat perhaps as it is 4mb??) - PM me if you want it
     
  19. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #19 tazandjan, Dec 8, 2013
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    Arvid- Yes, the owners manual has the cam timing data. Like I said before, If you do not have one, get it at ferrardatabase.com. The old owners manuals have just about everything an owner needs for most maintenance, unlike those for the newer Ferraris, which are like Buick OMs.

    Not knowing how to use the data is kind of difficult to explain in a post, like Steve said. If your first time, might be better to use a pro.
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  20. Arvid

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    Terry,

    Yes,first time on a classic Ferrari V12. Like I said I have the OM and I've seen the data you are refering to. Should be enough to do the job but a WSM would be much better.

    Simon has most friendly mailed me a copy so now I have more details for the job.

    Thanks all for Your good advice and experiance.

    Arvid
     
  21. simonc

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    Arvid,

    I meant to ask - why do you think the cam timing is wrong? What are the symptoms?

    Simon
     
  22. Arvid

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    Well,I have a problem with irregular idle and jerking behavior when cruising at steady speed. Accelleration is good and it starts up easy too. Thought this was mostly due to the points as these where both worn and different in gap. Changed that but it did not fix the problem. Ignition was set to roughly 11 dgr. (not easy due to irregular idle). Carbs where also out of sync,tuned them fairly good with vacuum but still the same problem.

    I had all along noticed a clear difference in in the exhaust temperature when standing behind the car. I meassured it with IR at the header collector and it was a 20-25 dgr.C difference. I then spoke to Brian at F-life about this and he suggested the cam timing as this symptom often related to this.

    What do you think Simon ?
     
  23. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Arvid- 400 chains are notorious for stretching and changing the cam timing. Assume you are going to change out the single chain when you do the work.
     
  24. galbert

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    as tu fais contrôler tes allumeurs (vis platine , condensateur , calage )
     
  25. simonc

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    I think that it sounds like a tuning issue to me. I would suggest you look at the following:

    1) Fit new Plugs.
    2) Do a compression test
    3) Plug leads - are they in good condition?
    4) Check the plug leads are correctly fitted. It is easy to inadvertently swap two leads and it can be hard to tell between a V12 and a V10 sometimes. Your IR will show this up but you need to measure each individual header.
    5) Recheck the points again on both distributors
    6) Check timing using a timing light. It should 12 degrees at 3250 rpm and 30 degrees at 5000 rpm (the marks are on the flywheel and can be seen once a small inspection has been removed from underneath the car.
    7) Are the air filters OK?
    8) Clean the jets and/or rebuild the carbs with new float valves.
    9) Make sure the float levels are correctly set.
    10) Balance the carbs using a synchrometer.

    When did this problem start. Did you do something to the car before this started. We all like to think we couldn't make a mistake but these issues are usually caused by a mistake that someone, perhaps you or perhaps someone before you, has made. It happens to me frequently. - see 4) above :)

    I wouldn't start imagining any other cause until you are 110% certain that all of the above are correct. I know it is tempting to assume it must be something more complex than tuning but ask yourself why the cam timing would have changed.

    Only once you are sure all of these would I go further.

    Hope this help
     

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