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Wiring Problems in Fuse Box

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by SouthJersey400i, May 5, 2009.

  1. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,202
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
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    Ken Battle
    #1 SouthJersey400i, May 5, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    See the picture below and you will see my problem. One fuel pump would only run intermittently. (Slant 6 anyone?) With some help from a stranger on the road in VA to check the pump while I wiggled wires we found the plug burnt and the contacts too far open. I got back on the road and completed a 700 mile trip to Williamsburg, VA to join the FCA Mid-Atlantic region for a great weekend, including dinner with Derek Daley!

    Okay, now my questions:
    - Any chance the plastic connector is available as a replacement part?
    - Anyone have one they would like to sell that is better than mine?
    - How do you get the individual wires and female stab connectors out of the plastic plug?
    - Has anyone added any heat shielding above the exhaust to keep heat from the fuse box? It was bloody hot to even touch the relays and wiring!
    It appears that the male stab connections in the backing plate are in good condition.


    A second unrelated question. I found that the parts book shows the Bosch relay for the "Start Valves Control" to be the same relay as the individual fuel pumps (Bosch # 0332 014 113), but I have the Bosch relay in place with the number 0332 204 101, which is the same relay as the one for the common fuel pumps. (Relay in question is on the lowest row, the second from right.) Since the amps and the prongs are the same for both relays I fear that one is normally open and the other is normally closed. If I have the wrong one in place for this service it could be an issue for both starting and normal running. Anyone know for sure which is correct?
    Ken
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  2. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The 14113 relay is the correct one for the "start valves", don't know how these relays are different than the 04101 relays. These are the main two relay types in the box.

    0332 014113: warning horn relay, air conditioner radiator fan, left and right electro-fan of water radiator, central radiator fan, high and low beam headlights, external lights, window motors, a/c and heating fans, left and right fuel pumps, start valves, and starting (automatics only).

    0332 04101: high/low wiper speed, head lamp lifting motor (2), right and left headlamp lifting motor (takes a lot to lift those head lamps I guess!), flashing lights, also fuel pumps, front a/c anti-frost valve (dual a/c option only), rear a/c anti-frost valve (dual a/c), yet another for the anti-frost valves of the two a/c systems.

    With only two types of relays being used in so many positions, it is easy to see how the wrong type might end up in a slot.

    The problem is that over time the connections loosen up and get dirty, both of which creates resistance that results in a lot of heat buildup and intermittant operation. If the heat buildup is hot enough, it could melt the connection right off.

    Vantage Motors tells me that there is a replacement board that is much better than the original and it fits into the same spot. I will ask for the source next time I see them.

    I have not replaced my relay panel but I did have it gone through a few years ago to clean and tighten all of the connections and it has performed perfectly since then. I also simply replaced all of the fuses and relays at the same time, figuring that 20 years (at the time) was old enough for them.
     
  3. laperriere

    laperriere Karting

    Mar 10, 2006
    162
    Montreal

    As Ken mentioned, this area can be hot. Is it to say that connectivity could be good when cold and poor or irregular when hot ?

    I experience a pb on my car '79 400i. It runs perfect when cold but once hot the revs are not so frank and it seems half of the engine is not at its top. Additionaly, it seems the side that is concerned, left or right, may vary. Strange, but I'm pretty sure of that.
    The car has just been serviced with a local Bosch workshop with no result.

    According to what you both said, could we imagine that when cold the connectivity is fine. Then, as soon as the engine is hot (I mean 15 mns, not 30s), which means the exhaust is hot as well, the relay connectivity becomes somewhat hazardous ? This would lead to an irregular fuel pressure on one side or the other one, which would explain the hesitation in the revs.

    Looking forward your analysis, this would help a lot.

    My (limited) contribution to the topics is that from my own car's, it is a sure fact that it may happen that some relays unplug themselves.

    Thanks in advance

    Olivier
     
  4. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
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    If you have intermittant operation of power from the left or right banks, sometimes randomly, I would most definitely check and clean all of the fuel pump relay connections. When you notice that one side seems to have cut out, open up the relay box cover and wiggle the corresponding fuel pump relays a bit. You may find that it kicks in. I'm not sure that cold vs. hot operation necessarily affects it since heat causes metal to expand and you would expect that the expansion of the metal contacts from the heat might improve the connection.

    I had this problem a few years ago, one side working or not and found that replacing the relays and cleaning the contacts solved the problem.

    At any rate, try cleaning and tightening the contacts, consider replacing the relays in the event that they are sometimes defective themselves and maybe use a product such as Stabilant that is designed to keep electrical contacts clean and resistance-free.
     
  5. laperriere

    laperriere Karting

    Mar 10, 2006
    162
    Montreal
    Thanks a lot, that's an unvaluable expertise. You've got a new friend in France!
    Olivier
     
  6. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
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    Ken Battle
    I found a lot of chat on this same topic on the Mondial site. I saw a picture that looks just like mine and since their exhaust is not over the fuse box, the cause is something else. What was discussed their is that the fuel pumps have a very high surge current when they start. This jives with my experience that I can start the car and only one is running but in a few seconds the second one comes in and the car runs good until stopped. This weekend, the restart was after 300 miles so everything was hot and made the situation worse. Another contributing factor is that the original Bosch relays are rated for 30 amps and the newer Tyco relays are rated for 40 amps.

    I learned today that the plastic plugs are replacement parts but my local dealer did not have the correct one. I have other feelers out for the correct one. They also stock the clips to replace the burnt and worn connectors. The Stabilant product must be pretty good; it sells for $65 for a little tube of it but some people swear by it.

    I would like to find the exact Tyco replacement for the two Bosch relays. Neither Bosch number shows on the Tyco or supplier sites. I can get the NOS Bosch relays but would rather update to the newer 40 A relays. Does anyone know the exact cross reference? Dave posted a note some time ago about getting them easily but I do not think he posted the Tyco numbers.

    I will work through this issue for sure with your help.
    Ken
     
  7. laperriere

    laperriere Karting

    Mar 10, 2006
    162
    Montreal
    Many thanks. I cleaned the contacts, tightened it, and I saw a real improvement. The intermittent operation was still there, but much later and to a much lower extent. This is clearly where the problem originated from. I'll first try the stabilent then if required I'll change the relays. Thanks Ashman.
    Olivier
     
  8. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,202
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    Ken Battle
    It took a while to get all of the bits ready but I finished the job this weekend and all is well.

    My issue was totally toasted contacts to both fuel pumps. The plastic in the plug was burned at the two wires to the fuel pumps. The metal connectors had a big gap and were brittle from the heat. One other wire was similar but to a lesser degree. So I took all of the following actions:
    -replaced plastic plug (10 slot)
    -replaced three metal connectors.
    -replaced both relays with new Bosch ones which are still 30A, but they are larger and have a plastic coating to keep out moisture and dust.
    -treated wire end and contact end of every connector in the fuse box with Stabilant 22. (8 connectors total)
    -Treated every relay and fuse contact with Stabilant 22
    -Replace the common fuel pump relay with the usual Bosch type relay

    Everything is working fine and my wipers might actually move a bit quicker too.
    Ken
     
  9. jacques

    jacques Formula Junior

    May 23, 2006
    830
    Los Angeles/Florida
    This info may be of use: Tyco Electronics bought the license from Bosch to build the particular relays that we all have in our cars.
    They are now contained in a plastic casing and rated at 40amps..Here are the new part #'s ..The old Bosch"101" relay is now Tyco relay #V23234A0001X037 (SPDT)Purple casing. This is a Normally Closed relay. Also it is the one with the 87/87a terminals. The old Bosch "113" relay is now Tyco relay #V23234C0001X006 in a Brown casing. It is (SPST) and is a Normally Open relay.It is the one with the 87/87 terminals. Tyco Electronics..1-800-522-6752. They don't usually sell direct but many electronic outlets are distributors..They range in price from $4.00 to $10.00 USD depending where you buy.. These are very common so don't pay more. There have been MANY superceding Bosch #'s so don't drive yourselve Bonkers dealng wth the hassle of trying to find the old metal-cased relays. They are still available, but why bother. Also the color coded casings make it an instantly visible sorting out process. I hope this is of some value.Jacques.
     
  10. aidanparte

    aidanparte Formula 3
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    Jul 18, 2004
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    Great Jacques. This information and other details in this thread will be invaluable for reference.
     
  11. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Fantastic info, Jacques! That goes right in the file folder.

    BTW, to add to this thread, GT Car Parts in Phoenix, Arizona sells reconditioned and improved fuse/relay panels that should clear up any remaining problems if the clean and tighten strategy doesn't solve the problem(s). The reconditioning includes a heavier duty circuit board so the connections should stay connected much better. The price is $1,250 plus your old panel. He also has all the white terminal plugs (the ones that are fried up above in this thread) for $10 each.

    How do I know this? Easy, I bit the bullet and had one installed!
     
  12. garybobileff

    garybobileff Formula Junior
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    Feb 5, 2004
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    Gentleman, it's been my experience over the years that the fuse box/ wiring connector problem starts with old fuel pumps that draw too much amperage. That, inturn creates a situation that the wiring and relays are subjected to too much current flowing thru them, causing the burned syndrome. Replacing wire ends and relays is a very good thing, but, the problem will shortly re-occur as the root of the problem has not been dealt with. The other item is that below the fuses and relays lies a multi layer circut board which delaminates from excess heat causing an intermittant problem with a/c, poor running, such as on one bank not working at random, etc. You can, however, remove the board, remove the screwed on rear panel, and re-solder many of the poor connections. That will help. The "new style" fuse box helps, as the earlier box had all the high draw items concentrated on one side of the box, now, they are spread out a little more, therefore distributing the heat a little more evenly over the circut board. Mondial's and TR's have the same problem, different fuse boxes, same construction. Check your fuel pumps!
    Gary Bobileff
     
  13. Fritz Ficke

    Fritz Ficke Formula 3
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    Very good point Gary.
    Jacques, great info.
    Ferrari ownership is much less daunting with this board, Fritz
     
  14. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #14 Ashman, May 30, 2009
    Last edited: May 30, 2009
    Great stuff, thanks! How do you check the draw on the fuel pumps? What is normal and what is too much? I have a volt/ampmeter.
     
  15. garybobileff

    garybobileff Formula Junior
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    According to the Bosch the 400i pumps flow 165 lt/hour, at 5 bars of pressure, with a maximum continous power of 10 amps. The pump output is directly proportional to the restriction placed upon it by the fuel pressure regulator. I assume that this 10 amp power figure will probably be at initial key on/crank as the system primes, as well as WOT (wide open throttle).
    Regarding how to check this, there are many types of meters on the market, inductive, direct hook up, etc, please follow the instruction sheet that accompanied your tester.
    Gary Bobileff
     
  16. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
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    #16 theunissenguido, Jun 8, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I just prepaired a fusebox that I could buy recently. It whas a fusebox for a Ferrari 412 and I wanted to transform it for a Mondial QV.
    The Mondial, Testarossas and 400/412 serie are using the same fuseboxes, except for the circuit layers and wipper relays...see my recent post.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=138714719&posted=1#post138714719

    For those who are driving a Ferrari400/412 and in a need for spare layers....I have those 400/412 layers wich I'm not going to use.

    They are well except for layer nr 2 that has 1 burned point (see pictures). It can be repaired with some fine copper or little wire.

    Let know if you are intrested and pm me for some more information.

    Greetings, Guido
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  17. Heathgh00

    Heathgh00 Rookie

    May 29, 2014
    3
    Hi Gary
    The fuel pumps are rated at 10 amps continous regardless of throttle position. The pumps pump at a continual speed and excess fuel is sent to the tank via the return. The ampage climbs as the pumps start up but should settle back to 10 amps. The best way to test these pumps is to use a mechanical ammeter and bridge it across terminal 30 and 87 of the relay.
     
  18. Faber

    Faber Formula Junior

    May 5, 2011
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    FWIW, Amp draw using Clamp DMM on 87 Mondial 3.2 Fuel Pump positive wire was .21 for me with engine running - I "heard" anything over .5 is cause for concern. I have the Fuel Pump & AC "bypass fuze box" rig and upgraded # 87 & 30 relay wires on both relays to 12 AWG. These had previously been melting the relay receptacle. Good thread, thanks - I need to go over the 400GT per above.
     
  19. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior
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    Tom, are carb and i pumps the same? We have just the twin pumps by the rear axle.
     
  20. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
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    Big difference in pumps. Carb pumps put out about 4.5 psi while FI is around 40 psi. Much different current requirements.
     
  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    EFI is about 40 psi -- CSI is ~80 psi!
     
  22. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
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    Higher than I realized.
     
  23. Highmiler

    Highmiler Formula Junior

    Dec 8, 2010
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    Wiring Problems in Fuse Box
    Ken,
    Has this problem developed with the pumps wired directly to the battery or is it an old post?
    Greg
     
  24. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    And one of the major reasons why EFI replaced CIS ;)
     
  25. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
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    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
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    Ken Battle
    Greg
    I'm not sure your questions. Yes, I added relays at rear of car and power supply direct from battery (with remote fuse). Control function is identical to original but pump power bypasses relay panel. This solved my earlier issues going on 3 years now. A few others have done the same.
    Ken
     

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