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Windows switches

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by 365, Apr 1, 2021.

  1. 365

    365 Karting

    May 31, 2011
    57
    Venezuela
    Full Name:
    German Alvarez
    Good day everyone.
    My car has Fispa switches does anyone knows where can I rebuilt them, or buy new ones, the Ducellier type does not fit because the bezels are different.

    Thanks for the help.
    German
     
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  3. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    3,289
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day German,

    You may wish to post some pictures, as I, for one, am unsure of the switch differences.

    Also, just a heads up... The window switches switch the entire window motor current across their contacts. Depending upon the age of the motor, the window track condition, etc the motor current can be quite large (8A when first starting the move). Secondly, there are thermal cut-off switches mounted to the side of the window motors and so if the motor stalls (when jammed, or when reaching the top and bottom of travel), the current can rise dramatically which heat the motor and then activates the thermal switches which disables the current flow to the motor. Over time the excessive current and internal oxidation of the switches creates localized heat in the switches causing them to fail. This is what happened to my switches (see pics). Sadly, the damage was quite severe and so a replacement was the best solution and was found from Ferrari UK.

    Given how the window motors and switches operate I decided to offload the high switching current from the window console switches to an external relay (see pic). This approach will preserve the original window switches (because they are now switching much less current) and at the same time maximize the voltage across the motors resulting in very fast open and close times. I think I measured times in about 3-4 seconds up and down, which I felt was more than adequate.

    Lastly, ensure you remove and clean your old motors (brushes, greases, etc) as well as replace the window track material. All of these items will affect the motor current, but also how fast the windows open and close.

    Cheers,

    Sam

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  4. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    764
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    The later switch does have a few more edges (more noticeably in the middle), a white engraved arrow, and 4 bullet (round) connectors. The 365 switch has "softer" curves, and no white markings. From memory the black moving part is also slightly longer.

    No pics of the 365 switch but here is the 400i switch :
    [​IMG]
     
  5. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,347
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    Sam
    What is the source, part # for the very nice two relay board? Where did you fit it? under the speaker?
    Ken
     
  6. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    3,289
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Ken,

    This board is my own design. Overall it is pretty small at about 1" square. My plan was to insert it into a slightly larger square case (an electrical potting box) and then fill the case with electrical epoxy so it is nicely sealed and electrically protected. The connections will be brought to a male/female mating plug that is of the same family as used by other Ferrari connectors. As for installation... it can be installed in the console close to the original switches or within the door itself. If it is installed in the console then additional wiring is not really needed (just some slight re-wiring). However, this approach relies upon Ferrari's original +12V and ground wires... which are pretty crappy in terms of the currents they support. If I install the device in the door then I will have to run an additional wire for +12V. This would be a better approach, as then I can use the proper size wire, but also there would be less resistive losses as compared to the original setup... resulting in even faster window up/down rates (although the current rates are quite good). I have not fully installed the relay, as I am deciding if I want to change the design slightly to add a "snubber" across the relay contacts to extend their life. The switching current is high enough that over time the contacts will get abused. However, the number of times that the relays would be switching would be relatively low and so a snubber may not really be needed.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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  8. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    3,289
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Ken,

    I forgot to mention that I am happy to share the electrical circuit if you wish to make your own. Also if I have some extra parts kicking around, I can make up and send you a set once I get back to working on my car... which I am hoping will be in a few months time.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  9. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,347
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    Sam
    I did not think of the possibility of installing relays in the console. I always think about getting them as close to the user (motor) as I have done with my fuel pumps and radiator fans. I found one of the big voltage loss is the very small gauge wires from the switches to the motors in the doors. So putting relays in console would not resolve this. Also, it is pretty congested in the console.

    My window motors are not big enough issue for any current action, but always good to have good ideas on 'back burner'.
    Ken
     
  10. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    764
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Your mileage may vary but on my car all the wires are more than adequate (and bigger than in any of my other vintage cars). If you look at the photo I posted, one can see that the yellow cables that go to the door are quite big, and more than capable of handling the 5~6 amp-draw of the power windows.

    Stock harness, new fuse panels, motor lubed and cleaned, plus a crude copy of Sam's booster (installed next to the ash tray): 5seconds to raise the window. No need for any major surgery in order to make these window operate properly.



    PS: I was also fixing the mirrors so the video did capture both.
     
  11. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    3,289
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Raemin,

    Although the wire looks of a reasonable size (overall size including insulation is 3.5 mm/0.138mil dia), it is the details that really denote its capability. On my car the window wires are comprised of 30 strands of 30 Gauge wire (so 30/30) which makes for an wire Gauge of 15AWG. However, because the wire is made from strands the effective current capability will be less than a pure solid wire of this gauge. The wire looks to have PVC insulation, is bundled with other wires, is encased in closed areas (e.g. no in free air movement) and has a reasonable length (about 2+ metres) which would further reduce the wire's current capability. Ignoring these details and simply reviewing the many sites regarding current capability (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wire-gauges-d_419.html), we see that this wire would safely (which is based upon the total temp rise of the wire) would be about 7A. From my basic current testing of freshly rebuilt and lubed motors, replacement of the window track felt, etc I found that the current spikes past 7A (in some cases as high as 11A) when first starting and then lowers to a steady state of around 5-6A. Now if we take into affect the other items I mentioned, one can see that the wire is at best right at the bare minimum size assuming all over components are fine. Now, adding worn brushes, oxidized contacts, window track friction, etc the motor current can easily exceed this bare minimum. Based upon all of this it is my opinion that the wires are inadequate. Would I remove and replace the cable harness? No, but I would be mindful that the wire is inadequate and so I would take the necessary precautions as well as periodic inspect the wiring, etc.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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  13. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    3,289
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Ken,

    Understood. Installing at the motors would be the best, but does require more effort and a slight diversion from the stock setup. However, I think the benefits far outweigh the negatives.

    As for my console... I cannot speak for the 400/412 series, but the 365 has a lot of room in this cavity. Secondly, my relay module is pretty small and so it would not be an issue to install in this area.

    If anything one should really refresh/rebuilt the motors, etc but also replace the window track and readjust the motor and cables. All of these items affect the motor's load and so reducing the load will reduce the current demand which reduces the strain on the switches and wires. Doing the above and without the relay module, my windows would go up and down (down a bit faster because gravity is your friend) as fast as a modern car.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  14. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    764
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    As long as the windows are reasonably fast I do not size the wires for a given voltage drop, but more in order to keep heat under control. Given the sort of 5~15 amperage we are talking about, the old-school (i.e thick) PVC insulation of the 5inches/15AWG cable should hold-on. I even suspect the motor winding would melt before the PVC insulation. In any case smaller fuses are a good idea.

    As a side note when I dismantled my harness I noticed that my O & P fuses were fed by a 4mm² cable instead of the 2.5mm² as stated in the manual. These are the two fuses that feed the windows switches. The issue here is that both fuse share the same red cable (that comes from the shunt/alternator wires). I do not know when Ferrari decided to upgrade this red wire, but on older cars one should indeed be careful so as to not operate both windows together, as this could stress the red cable and even burn the terminals of the fuse-panel. As this cable is located before the fuses if it melts this could be nasty.
     
  15. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    764
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    #12 raemin, Apr 10, 2021 at 8:32 AM
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021 at 8:38 AM
    Back to the original question, does anyone know when the older type of switches were replaced in favour of the Ducellier?

    I had the impression that the 365 used the older types but I've come across a few photos that show 365 consoles fitted with Ducellier. The later switches are shorter so not an easy swap, upgrading also the console (to a 400 type) could be an option but in this case the layout of the toggle switches would be different. All in all Ducellier switch on a 365 console is something I had never seen before.
     

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