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Why aren't we remaking them ?!

Discussion in 'Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies' started by Aristocrat, Nov 9, 2013.

  1. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

    Oct 6, 2007
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    That's what I'm getting at. As the covers in 275's post have Ferrari on them and it is a rep engine. If you see my earlier post I was wondering about branding the engines.

    Glad to hear there is a way to tell them apart. But it is a sad fact that people will cast with those marks some day and sell repros as real. That is the part of repros I don't like. If you are paying for a real part you should get it.
     
  2. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
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    I would imagine that Ferrari watches these folks like a hawk. They aren't going to put a Ferrari logo or name on anything that they sell that they shouldn't. If they sell a repo engine and buy the valve covers from Ferrari that have Ferrari logos on them, they can do that, but so long as every part that they make doesn't have logos or branding on them they are fine. I'm positive these folks know the rules and follow them to the letter. Ferrari is very protective of their branding and have a big staff of lawyers to keep trespassers from encroaching on their branding.

    In some places (like China) there is little or no branding protection, but I doubt anyone is going to spend what it costs for a Ferrari cylinder head from a fly by night parts house. If you do your research and due diligence you will know what you are getting, and if you buy a part in Ferrari box with a Ferrari logo on the part you should be fine. Unfortunately there are a lot of illegally branded parts out there from China, but those tend to be parts made in higher quantities. A Chinese company isn't likely to invest what it would cost to make a 250 cylinder head for the small quantities that it could get in the market. The consumer spending that much isn't likely to be fooled. Buying a water pump for a Honda OTOH, you need to be careful because there could very well be knock off copies out there that are cheap and are junk, and the demand is high enough that it would pay you to tool up and make something like that.
     
  3. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    I've heard that there are Vintage Ferrari parts coming out of China from a local Ferrari shop. Not sure what or how true that is....
     
  4. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
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    It's not doing that job so much as doing it in those particular times. I call it the golden era of German car manufacturing. Automotive design, engineering and technology progressed and evolved and kept getting better and better throughout the 60's 70's 80's and peaked in the 90's .. Then .. from there onwards .. sadly .. They have been going downhill as far as I'm concerned. You were in the scene right when the scene was at the tip of the mountain. Lucky you.
     
  5. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
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    Lets not forget that we reply on companies like Roelofs to produce the spares to keep our cars running. They are in the business of supplying parts and not producing counterfeit engines to deceive the uneducated.

    What would average customer prefer when he receives his replacement engine block no longer available from Ferrari ?

    Something that looks like an original block or something with the words "Roelofs made in Holland" emblazoned on the side ?
     
  6. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    #106 Vincent Vangool, Nov 14, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
    I highly respect these manufacturers. What got me into all of this is at one time I was playing around with the idea of casting 250 parts/blocks.

    It is not the craftsmen that make these that I am afraid of but the counter-fitters and the thieves that pass these parts off as real and original. I would not want to buy something thinking it was 100% authentic to later find out it was a total fake.

    If you've read my other stuff it's prob obvious that I am a proponent of keeping as much of the original car intact as is possible. I also believe in preserving as many of these machines in as original condition as is possible.

    I would rather the car was built from the original Ferrari parts but I would rather that cars were not broken to supply parts and thus am glad that aftermarket is available.

    But if buying a car, say a PF 2 Cab, I would want to know if it was all original or if the heads were modern day re-cast components. I wouldn't want some blatantly obvious difference but rather a small marking or dimple in a hidden area that said it was made by this manufacturer or in the case where Ferrari marks them possibly no marking at all. To me how original it is affects how I would value it. Or how originally it was restored for that matter.

    I just think there should be something that stops people selling recreations as real parts etc. This is prob mostly handled by not having Ferrari markings already.

    Although I like the idea of available parts for real Ferrari's as well as the ability to hopefully one day cancel out the donor car factor with recreations I don't like the idea of another Favre coming into the fold.
     
  7. Enigma Racing

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    You are describing a Ferrari utopia that does not exist.

    In the real world new and original 250 parts DO NOT exist (any that do are incredible rare and cherished). The vast majority of original parts that do exist are coming from broken cars or from owners that have opted not to go to the great expense of repairing them. You cannot keep a 250 running without using remanufactured parts and I very much doubt that there is a 250 in existence that is used regularly that does not have a remanufactured component in it.

    I have not heard of the 250 spares "counterfitters or thieves" that are passing off fakes as original, who are they ?

    Ferrari like other manufacturers have stopped making spares for older cars and they are happy that this demand is served by specialist manufacturers like GTO or Roelofs. Ferrari are not suing them for copyright infringement and I suspect the Classische department are using the same manufacturers for their certification. I am sure this attitude would change if they started a large scale deception plan to fool the 250 owners. But do you honestly think there is a likely hood that someone could start making replica cars and passing them off a real without being detected ?

    The Cal Spyder coffee table raises an interesting question. Here is an owner who is prepared to go to the great expense of having a replica engine made. What is his motivation, to con everybody ? and if he stamps the original engine number on the new block is he guilty of deception ?. Of course, if he stamps a different number then he will be required to register and change the registration documents. What would you do ?

    In my book, he should be applauded for preservation. Unscrupulous or ignorant owners may try to sell the car and replica engine as original in the future but anyone parting with that sort of money would be a fool not to check

    Kim
     
  8. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    Sorry. I did not mean NOS parts. I meant recreated parts.

    Not saying there are these counterfitters, well there was Favre, but I could see this developing as more and more parts were recreated.

    I realized that you need to keep the cars running you need recreated parts. if you read what I've said before I stated this. I just think it should be disclosed if your cylinder heads I.E. major components are recreated versus real Ferrari parts just as one should disclose that the car has been re-bodied.

    Porsche Classic stock almost all of the parts for all the old cars. 10 years or older.

    Favre passed off replica's as real cars, so yes. And I could see many getting duped, and it has been done before, mostly those that don't really know what they are looking at. If you don't think this can happen you have blinders on.

    I don't think this guy has any motive to con anyone? Who said that? I think he is doing the responsible thing and preserving his genuine motor. I would do the same thing.

    Not everyone has the knowledge to check what is real or not and this is where I could see a counterfit problem coming about. Sure buyer beware but that's a scumbag thing to do.
     
  9. Todd308TR

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  10. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
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    Yeah, I gotta agree with Vincent on this one. If I want to use a recreated part, or a recreated car entirely, firstly, I shouldn't mind people knowing it's a recreation. And secondly, I shouldn't pass it off as original, also for two reasons; a) History is endangered, and b) There IS a sentimental difference between an original and a recreation and when there's a difference in value sentimental, materialistic or otherwise, a distinction is in order.

    Example; coffee table guy gets VERY rich and eccentric, people no longer trace his wealth and possessions, coffee table guy dies a very long time afterwards and one of his barns is neglected by heirs, 80 years later people who are entirely out of this picture unearth barn and find very rare and valuable classic car, examine its authenticity and guess what .. engine number matched. And it gets auctioned off as an all original numbers matching example.
    aah .. exactly what I mean .. Thanks!

    And if there are any other companies out there like this one, perhaps ones that re do English and Italian classics, I'd appreciate it if someone pointed me in their direction.

    Especially, if they use newly registered chassis' and sell them as recreations/kit cars or whatever.
     
  11. Bill_OBrien

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  12. Pass

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    #112 Pass, Nov 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have nearly $400K and 8 years now into my exact nut and bolt reconstruction of the
    W194 300SL Gullwing Serial # 0001/52.. I found what is believed to be a correct engine block and have utilized all the exact 1940's thru 1951 vintage sedan components including the correct DIN nuts and bolts gleaned from cars of the era. Modifying the sedan parts for racing exactly as the original was done. The car was scrapped by the factory having been cannibalized for the other nine cars raced in the early 1950's. And yes I have faced ridicule from both private individuals and the factory for this project. Because I am starting with a genuine block and a handful of other original W194 parts as well as the majority of vintage chassis parts I don't feel I am doing anything illegal. It is common knowledge that chassis # 0001/52 was scrapped so I have serialized the chassis numbers with an "A" to prevent unscrupulous yet to be born crooks from passing off the car as the original. Correct alloy body is currently under construction. See more at w194.com - Home
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  13. opencollector

    opencollector Formula Junior

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    #113 opencollector, Nov 16, 2013
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    You are incorrect.
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  14. Pass

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    Mercedes Benz has a design patent for the "Shape" of the production Gullwing but it is only enforceable in the EU because of the Utilitarian shape clause in the U S Patent laws. MB admitted in their initial release of the design in 1954 that the shape was to allow for the doors and a lower coefficient of drag. They do not have a patent on their 1952 and earlier race cars. Only production units.

    And of course they have a patent on the trademark enforceable everywhere.
     
  15. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Pretty cool. Who owns the title to the original scrapped chassis?
     
  16. Pass

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    #116 Pass, Nov 16, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
    None of the prototypes were ever titled unless they were later rebodied and sold to the private market. Only two of the 11 W194's that were made ended up in private hands; Chassis 0004/52 and Chassis #0007/52. A third one; Chassis 0006/52 (the roof air brake car) was created from parts brought together from various cars like mine was recreated and Holy water sprinkled on it by Mercedes and sold to Bruce McCaw to go along with his Number 0007/52 car.
     
  17. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

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    I stand corrected. Ferrari seems to be willing to patent their recent bodywork.

    That's the first I have seen that type of thing but I guess that since lots of folks make replica bodies I guess that it might make sense for them to do a design patent. If you have a lawyers on staff and are willing to do it, you obviously can, but after 17 years it is done. In the present conversation we are talking about classics here where any patents would have long expired.

    Moreover, notice that these are, in terms of patents, pretty recent, starting in 1995. That is, they didn't start doing this until there were lots of Fiero's being rebodied with Ferrari shells and they wanted to try to make sure that people couldn't copy their bodywork perfectly.
     
  18. opencollector

    opencollector Formula Junior

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    US design patents last 14 years. (The term on utility patents was extended from 17 years to 20 years back in '95).

    Ferrari was assigned a design patent for the F40 back in 1987, around the time of their famous dust-up with the producers of Miami Vice.

    Ferrari went on to sue the manufacturer of the replicar bodies used in the show, Carl Roberts, for _trademark_ infringement. The following is from the judgement in the case:

    Ferrari's vehicles would not acquire secondary meaning merely because they are unique designs or because they are aesthetically beautiful. The design must be one that is instantly identified in the mind of the informed viewer as a Ferrari design. The district court found, and we agree, that the unique exterior design and shape of the Ferrari vehicles are their "mark" or "trade dress" which distinguish the vehicles' exterior shapes not simply as distinctively attractive designs, but as Ferrari creations.

    We also agree with the district court that Roberts' admission that he intentionally copied Ferrari's design, the survey evidence introduced by Ferrari, and the testimony of Crane and Moore amount to abundant evidence that the exterior design features of the Ferrari vehicles are "trade dress" which have acquired secondary meaning.

    Roberts argues strongly that section 43(a) provides no trademark infringement protection for the exterior design of a product because "automobile designs are to be protected from copying only pursuant to the design patent statute," and Ferrari, during the period relevant to this case, had not protected the Daytona Spyder or the Testarossa with a design patent. We disagree.
    Watch out.
     
  19. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
    27
    I tip my hat to you, sir.

    A few questions, if you wouldn't mind;
    1) Is your project an accurate recreation, or is it an as-close-as-can-be one in terms of chassis design and body work ? .. Did you acquire any original plans/blueprints/litterature ?
    2) Is it possible to acquire such litterature and blueprints (generally not just for mercedes) ?
    3) Transmission and drivetrain you intend to use for your project ?
    4) You mentioned in your website that you learned that MB had originally used a modified version of an engine they used in thier coupes and cab's at the time, and that you sourced a similar engine and rebuilt it .. to "its" original specs or the modified specs ? and if the latter, (again .. if you don't mind me asking) did you refer to any references as to what spesific mods engineers did at the time ?

    Thanks for passing by, and wish you all the best with your endeavour !
     
  20. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    #120 Vincent Vangool, Nov 17, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
    I dig it. That must have been a great way to spend your time.

    I do like to see a fake Cobra or Speedster. I know it's not the real thing but it's good to see it rolling around.

    I def enjoyed the legal aspects from Opencollector as I feel an artist has a right to his work whether it is protected or not. I also feel the right enthusiast building their car the right way is gratitude for what they created.

    I'd would like to see fakes out there to a point where a kid sees it and goes wow. But if those cars were cheap copies that didn't deliver the car then I feel that gratitude is lost.

    But anybody that builds it as close as they can get it, I admire that.

    As much as I can appreciate a good recreation I really enjoy the cars that are done by an enthusiast craftsmen that is building to enjoy the car that they can't live without.

    I also believe recreations give the real cars a better chance to survive then if they weren't around.

    And in this case, a kid can say wow cause it's a car that no longer exists but now there is one to look at it and that kid, or retiree, can get the same basic experience as if it were the real thing.
     
  21. Pass

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    1) YES it is identical right down to the tubing size and I even went so far as to use the correct nut and bolt hardware brands from the era.

    2) When I initially started this project I had the support of the Factory museum and the archives in Stutgartt and Felbach and traveled there several time researching the project and I had access to prints, photos and specifications.. When Herr. Max Von Pein head of MB Classic retired and Herr. Harry Niemann the Archivist retired the corporate attitude changed. Lucky I had finish the majority of research by then.
    3) transmission and drivetrain are exact.
    4) the engine IS a correct M188 high compression block and had a tach drive built into it when I found it in a wash in the AZ desert Mercedes junkyard. No M188 engines came from the factory with a tach drive so it is thought to be a spare W194 engine.
     
  22. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

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    I was not aware of the "trade dress" statues. There could be a problem with asserting that "trade dress" would apply to a race car like a GTO or P car. The assertion of "trade dress" is made when the item does not have functional purpose. That is, if it is ornamental, it can be protected by trade dress protection. Ferrari produced their designer in that case to say that the shapes of the 365GTB/4 and the Testa Rosa were strictly ornamental in nature. One could easily assert that the nose and tail shapes of racing cars are features that were a key element of those designs land were there for functional purposes (aerodynamic downforce and low drag) and therefore should only be afforded patent protection. Since the shape of these cars was strictly produced to enhance the function of speed on the track, it becomes a lot more difficult to protect those design features with trade dress protection.

    Ferrari is obviously using patent protection to establish their rights to the design and then trade dress can extend their protection of the design after the patent expires. The old race cars were never patented, but Ferrari could try to exert trade dress protection if someone tried to make exact copies of the older cars. Problem for them is that if they didn't think to patent them at the time and since they didn't go after the maker of the 240Z based GTO replicas or after Noble when he was making P4 replicas they would have a hard time trying to go after someone for producing a replica that looks the same as those now.

    Ferrari is obviously very active in protecting their designs in more recent times, it would appear that they are building a basis so that they can establish and prevent reproductions of newer cars. The much older cars, now that they are over 50 years old probably presents a problem for them. The kits available for the California Spiders have been out there for a while and Ferrari isn't asking them to stop production. As a practical matter I don't see any difference between a Cal Spyder and GTB/4, other than the fact that they are 25 some years apart. It is a lot easier to show that a copy damages a current production item (as was the case with the Testa Rosa bodies), but something that is long out of production is a lot harder to protect, and even more so if you didn't protect it at the time.
     
  23. 275GTB

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  24. Enigma Racing

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