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Why aren't we remaking them ?!

Discussion in 'Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies' started by Aristocrat, Nov 9, 2013.

  1. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
    27
    Hi :) .. and again .. thanks for a great forum and a lovely community and for providing a small Ferrari "university library" if you will, for people like me to come browse through and research and learn.

    I would like to start by apologizing for taking and not giving back, not that I have anything to contribute, but I realize when someone does an effort that another benefits from, a thank you is in order. At least. So .. Apologies.

    I have been wondering about this thing for a long time, and I just can't find an answer and it's eating me (lol). You see, I have always been fascinated by old cars (and everything from the past). The craftsmanship, the minimal use of electronics and sesor-guided computers, and instead relying on fascinating artisticly beautiful little mechanics, the rawness of classic machinery (engines), the richness and the feel of heavy steal bodies, whole grain wood, whatever leather they used in the past, wire wheels, classic shapes .. and I could go on for weeks explaining what I love about old cars, but what I want to say is, I know there are lots of people like me out there, and so why isn't there anyone/any company/anything out there that remakes these cars for us ?!

    Why is the recreation movement limited to the original chassis' that rolled out of whatever factory ? What's stopping us from remaking (from scratch) the old engines, old chassis', old shells and interiors, and so remaking those cars entirely sticking with thier original flaws, for those of us who appreciate them and would love to own them new, and can't afford to buy the original stuff and maintain and restore them ..? Why ?

    In even simpler words, I don't understand what's stopping us from digging up blueprints and factory litterature and completely remake those E-types, Phantoms, 250's, Alfa's, Packards or whatever ? :(

    Is it regulations ? Is it the manufacturers themselves ? Is it the diffculty of getting plans and blueprints ? Or is it (and I'm afraid to ask) that I was wrong and there isn't really a market for there to be a sane business case for my dream to come true ?

    Sorry for a lengthy post, and poor phrasing ... second language :)
     
  2. Andrewo

    Andrewo Formula Junior

    Dec 4, 2011
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    Palos Verdes, CA
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    Andrew
    If you could completely re-build a car from scratch, chances are you could easily afford the real thing unless it is something like a GTO or Testa Rossa. Making an E Type from scratch would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.
     
  3. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
    27
    Hi. Thanks for taking the time.

    How so, kind sir ? ... If I have bleuprints of the engine and main parts of the car, the exact types of metals (composites or otherwise) and other materials used in everyone of these parts, how is commissioning workshop or a plant with sophisticated machining equipment to build them accordingly going to cost hundreds of thousands ?
     
  4. damian in nj

    damian in nj Formula Junior

    Aug 24, 2009
    709
    While Ferrari could easily pull a Aston Martin and do a run of Sanction II GTO's like Aston did with the Zagato DB4GT's (and sell them for millions each) I doubt they would be that transparently craven to do so.

    Lister cars in the UK does make their own toolroom replicas.
     
  5. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

    Oct 6, 2007
    1,177
    Menlo Park, Ca.
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    Vincent Vangool
    This is being discussed in 0858 thread. Pretty much all of the parts are available as new parts these days down to the engines and transmissions.

    Money, for the most part, is the obstacle to building a 250 Ferrari-ish from scratch.
     
  6. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
    27
    Could you please post a link to the thread you mentioned I don't know how to find a thread by its number.
     
  7. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

    Oct 18, 2009
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    A couple or problems here:

    Firstly, people do re-make these cars to the old designs, especially in places like China - They're called fakes!

    A lot of them end up getting crushed or destroyed because they are pretending to be something they are not and breach various Laws.

    Secondly, if Ferrari themselves were to start to re-manufacture cars such as the 250 GTO again, they would have to work to modern regulations for safety and emissions rather than the regulations that were applicable at the time of the original cars because they would be deemed to be a new car.

    Now, there's no way a 250 GTO built exactly to the original designs is going to pass any of the modern day regulations! - Be it safety regulations or emission regulations.

    Re-creations based on old chassis' get around this because they are essentially still the same old but with a different body on top.

    They also get around a lot of Laws for trademark infringement and such as like because they were originally made by Ferrari. Whether people on here like it or not, putting a 250 GTO body on a 250 GTE chassis does not instantly mean that the car is no longer a Ferrari!
     
  8. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

    Oct 6, 2007
    1,177
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    Vincent Vangool
    Curious to who is making them in china? Names?

    Also couldn't you just use a data plate from an old VW or whatnot and get past the regulations etc?
     
  9. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
    27

    Now, you see, you are answering a different question. It would be a fake that "gets crushed and destoyed" if they were "fakes" as you said. I wouldn't have wrote this short novel to ask you where I can find a 280 Nissan poorly redone to look like a Ferrari. What I'm asking about is accurate replicas, true faithful remakes.

    As for regulations differing now from back then, I don't think they apply to small cottage industries that sell limited numbers.
     
  10. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

    Oct 18, 2009
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    Phill J
    You cannot simply make a brand new chassis and then just rivet on a random old chassis plate to it - That would not be legal as the plate does not relate to the chassis (I believe this is the very thing that got Boyd Coddington into trouble in the USA with his hot-rods).

    In order to use the plate you would have to use the chassis that the plate relates to, otherwise you're guilty of giving the vehicle a false identity.

    It can be possible to replace a chassis and keep the original chassis number, but the new chassis needs to be a direct replacement chassis, to the same design as the original.

    You can also alter a chassis to a degree and keep the original chassis number (as happens with 250 GTE to 250 GTO conversions), but the main part of the chassis needs to remain intact.

    Basically, what you're suggesting cannot legally be done!
     
  11. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
    27
    Does Ferrari S.p.A. have the right to sue me for copying a car they manufactured 60 years ago ?! Isn't there like a certain maximum period of time of which you may hold the rights or patents of whatever product u register ?!

    Why the debate about the legality of altered chassis', why not found a firm and produce newly registered chassis' ?!
     
  12. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Aug 28, 2005
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    #12 GordonC, Nov 9, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2013
    What is the basis for your assumption above? Just wishful thinking, or have you done any actual research into the regulations for vehicle registration? (Where are you located?)

    As for cost - it's often said that if you tried to build an entire vehicle via parts purchased from the manufacturer's parts department, the total cost would be many times the price of purchasing the vehicle new off the sales floor. The same would apply to trying to build a vintage vehicle from parts - the individual pieces cost alone would be astronomical, especially in small numbers and especially where the components would need to be custom made, cast, forged, milled, welded, stamped, hammered. The cost of individual labour to recreate formerly mass produced parts should not be under-estimated.

    Because then you are a manufacturer of new vehicles, and must comply with all emissions, safety, etc. regulations in each market in which you wish to sell your vehicles. Crash testing prototype chassis gets very expensive, very quickly!
     
  13. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

    Oct 18, 2009
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    Okay, lets look at your "cottage industry" idea:

    AS the cars you would be making have not been made by Ferrari, and you are making it to look exactly like a Ferrari, right down to the chassis, engine, gearbox etc., etc., (albeit a very old Ferrari), you are still making a fake!
    One way or another, the Law will prevent you from doing it. (And if you use Ferrari badges or the Ferrari name on any components that you have made then Ferrari will take you for everything you own!).

    The cars you build are going to require some form of inspection and their VIN's are going to need to be registered, at which point I suspect, you are going to be reported for making a fake Ferrari and again, Ferrari will take action against you!

    Look at it this way:

    If it were that easy to do, and legal to do it, don't you think there would be loads of companies doing it already?

    But there aren't are there?

    Why? - Because you cannot legally do it! (unless Ferrari sanction you to do it).

    The companies that do the best recreations still use original Ferrari chassis' because that way they stay within the Law
     
  14. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

    Oct 18, 2009
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    I'll repeat what I posted above:

    I tell you what, if you think you can legally carry out your idea then go ahead and try it!

    I'll look forward to reading about it in the press!
     
  15. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,233
    Do they really? AFAIK many if not most replicas use restamped chassis frames and it is almost impossible to determine where they came from. Personally I would never dare to buy a fake with a restamped chassis. Too risky.
     
  16. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    #16 Napolis, Nov 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Why not just make them?

    Start with a modern production car and re design and re engineer it into a one off Special Project?

    Coachbuilders have done this in period for years and some wonderful cars have resulted all of which aren't pretending to be something they're not.

    Who knows? Maybe one day a car you make will be invited on to the lawn for what it is.
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  17. davidoloan

    davidoloan Formula Junior

    May 6, 2009
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    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIxlql0Ebnc]1927 Bugatti Type 35 Pur Sang Replica - Jay Leno's Garage - YouTube[/ame]
     
  18. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

    Oct 6, 2007
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    This is a Quote from the 0858 thread:

     
  19. thecheddar

    thecheddar Formula 3

    Jun 29, 2006
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    As others have said, it'll cost at least a couple hundred grand to technically build one. The two key "non-technical" issues are

    1. Copyright/intellectual property - Ferrari are protective to a fault of their name (a huge part of their revenue comes from merchandising) and they do not play nice. Shelby let commercial Cobra recreations be built for a while before defending his trademarks, complicating his business later (I believe he licensed rights eventually though it was all very messy).

    2. Federal and State vehicle regulations - As noted above, importing a car sans engine provides a lot of leeway from modern regs. Again, Shelby tried to skirt this by "discovering" some "leftover" Cobra chassis which was BS and invited a bust. Porsche recreations use old VW pans but I don't know how they use the 356/550 shape without issue. Still, some small volume manufacturers like Caterham import non-compliant vehicles this way.

    Right or wrong (and the passions here are clear), there's a truly enormous demand for the vintage Ferrari *experience*, particularly of the 250 series - The signature Weber/Colombo V12 sound, the iconic coach built shapes, etc. I'm frankly surprised no one has managed the two issues above to satisfy this "authentically", as Pur Sang seem to have done with Bugatti and Alfa. Someone here will surely be better able to explain why.
     
  20. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
    27
    Common sense. I don't see Koensigg or Zonda being obliged to build thier own "Aston Martin Signet" to make up for thier production line offerings' emmisions' damage. I don't think AC Cobras passed crash tests that Renaults had to pass. And I assumed wooden Morgans also weren't obliged to meet the safety standards BMW's have to meet.
    True. I didn't assume this would cost $10,000, but anything less than $200,000 for a brand new 250 should be a great deal. And I don't think "custom made, cast, forged, milled, welded, stamped, hammered" parts should cost more than that should a workshop be commisioned if plans and blueprints are available.
    I repeat my reply to the first part.
    Ok maybe I'm not well read in laws and regulations but I'm sure if the last bolt Ferrari still manufactured for a 166 ceased production 40 years ago, they shouldn't be able to stop me from making it. I can republish a book 25 years (or so) later, re-use Viagra's chemical composition 6 years (or so) after its patent, why can't I reproduce a Ferrari that stopped being "made" by Ferrari 45 or 50 years ago !
    I know this is why I started this thread, because I know it should have been done and since it wasn't then it's illegal, and I can't see why it should be, so I asked you.
    Because it's the old tech, heavy, steal, wood, carburatored, old school badly built cars that I crave. If I wanted a modern good car there's always going to be low milage Pagani Zondas and Ferrari 599's out there. It's the classic stuff I'm wondering why we can't have "new" anymore.
    Can you please post a link or the title of that thread I don't know how to look up a thread by its number, and you guys keep reffering to it.
     
  21. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
    27
    Thank you for "nicely" poiting them out.

    Exactly my point.

    Thanks for passing by, and thank you for taking the time.
     
  22. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

    Oct 6, 2007
    1,177
    Menlo Park, Ca.
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    Vincent Vangool
  23. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
    27
  24. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
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    Jun 1, 2008
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    Kim
    Pur Sang Argentina make a well regarded replica of vintage Bugatti's and Alfa's as well as spare parts which are used on many original cars. Bugatti Automobiles S.A.S (owned by Volkeswagon) have no problem with Pur Sang selling replicas of Type 35, 37 43 or 51 with a new chassis number to a buyer who cannot afford an original car. Equally Alfa Romeo have no problem with them turning out an 8C

    Registration is easy in the UK, unless you have an original identity, you effectively register the car as a kit car and your registration document will say: Pur Sang type 35B, year 2014, Chassis number prefix BOxxxxx or Pur Sang 8C chassis number prefix POxxxxx. You do not need to go through any crash tests or approvals for the car but it will need to be inspected and be road worthy.

    There is a great article by Rick Carey in the Sports Car Digest on two Pur Sang cars at Amelia Island but the following extracts from the Bugatti Owners club equivalent to the Cavallino magazine made me smile and illustrates a marked difference in attitude of the Bugatti owner to so called fakes.

    "A long awaited visit to Pur Sang Argentina which makes the best re-production of the Bugattiís 35T, 35B and T43, came to reality when I visited the factory in April 2004. The Bugattiís are made in the traditional way, hand built by craftsmen to the highest standard, using traditional methods and materials.

    Pur Sang uses modern hi-tech to make the ultimate precision of each piece used in the Bugattiís combined with the craft man ship of every individual member of the team. A team dedicated to a perfect product.

    The chassis is handcrafted, so are the body parts and the engine after machined, put together by a team of father and two sons. After assembling the engine the engine get fired up and tested till the team is satisfied that the engine can be installed into the waiting Bugatti.

    My visit to the factory was a highlight and I could feel the passion for the Bugattiís from Jorge right across the team. Pur Sang has built a reputation of the perfect Bugatti re-production around the world. The clientele include well know people in the car industry and collectors of fine automobiles. If you always have dreamed to own a Bugatti and an original one is just out of your league, or you like a Bugatti with your special requirements a dream comes true at Pur Sang Argentina"

    In conclusion, the Pur Sang Alfa Romeo is not an Alfa Romeo it is a Pur Sang. It may look identical to an original car but it is registered as a Pur Sang and has a Pur Sang chassis and engine number. In answer to the original question, if there was the demand, there there should be no reason why Pur Sang could not build an iconic Ferrari. Pur Sang P4, Pur Sang Monza ? They would be "off topic" by the Fchat definition but IMO would be infinitely better then a reconstituted GTE or the like.
     
  25. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    Nov 20, 2003
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    Matt F
    What's the current price for a Pur Sang 35C?

    Matt
     

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