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Why aren't we remaking them ?!

Discussion in 'Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies' started by Aristocrat, Nov 9, 2013.

  1. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    A true realist will understand that the experience provided by a fake does not come anywhere near driving a real car. More characteristic the car, the clearer it gets.
     
  2. opencollector

    opencollector Formula Junior

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    There are design patents for ornamental designs like carbodies, but for old designs they'll have expired - as they should.

    Vintage cars don't comply with any modern regulations, so you'd have to pull some kit car / specialty-production vehicle move to operate a newly-made one in the United States. That can be tricky.

    However, there are folks building all-new GT40s, which is more-or-less what the OP is talking about, but generally I think that authenticity is important to someone spending a lot of money on an old car. And it would cost a _lot_ of money to build, say, a Miura from scratch.
     
  3. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
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    Nobody bothers with a design patent for car bodies. By the time anyone would want to copy it, the patent would have expired. If you were to do do patent search I'm sure you wouldn't find that Ferrari ever patented their designs.

    There are kit cars that are licensed every day. In the US it really isn't a problem. The advantage of a GT-40 is that correct engines can be had easily. It would be a lot harder to do an exotic without a donor car, since making the motor from scratch would be expensive, but it could be done, all it takes is money.
     
  4. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
    27
    Not sure what you mean (Sorry my English seems to fail me in the most crucial of times), but if I uderstood that well and you actually are referring to the mechanical experience as not being achieveable, I don't see how. The mechanical experience was achieved by a design, a set of materials, and a craft. If I could repeat the whole process accurately, how would I not achieve a similar driving experience ?

    Hi :) .. would you care to elaborate on the findings of your research ? I'm a Mechanical Engineer, not very experienced in the market and pricing of CNC machining and casting, but through the very limited experience I had back in school days and having to deal with low tech workshops and high tech plants - albeit for much smaller, but still a little complex, parts that we needed for our projects - I kind of figured it wouldn't cost that much to build an engine head or block ?

    I was thinking more along the lines of this gentleman's post ..
    Thanks all for passing by and taknig the time.
     
  5. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    Because replicating a car to look and behave exactly as the original would require enormous amount of data and man hours. You would need to take apart an original car and copy it part by part without cutting any corners. You would also need to resist the tempation to make it any better. Nobody can manage that and when you see how it gets done, you'll realize that corners are cut everywhere - and the end result is something else.

    The best example I can think of is Stratos. Very characteristic car with a very special and hard to copy suspension (=because of hard to obtain parts that would need to be specially manufactured for the purpose). When you start cutting corners, the character of the car quickly changes to something else. I've never heard anyone driving any Stratos re-creation that would feel anything like the real thing. Theoretically it could be done, I guess - but in the real world you don't really have a chance, or so they say.
     
  6. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
    27
    OK, I won't argue with both of your points. In reality both will stand very true.

    I'll keep defending the theory though.
     
  7. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
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    So it's OK to build a copy if the original does not exist.

    How many copies can we build ?

    One, one per continent, one per country ?

    How many "self serving" fakes does it take to "dilute a brand"

    Jim Stokes built a Sharknose for a Belgium client that regularly runs in historic races. By your definition we are in danger of ending up having an unjustified fake of a justified fake if he made another one.
     
  8. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
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    The Sharknose was a car I had in mind as I made that statement. Such a beautiful and successful racing car deserved to live again. Its recreation is well known and not infringing on the existence of an original like so many of these other imposters.

    As for how many could be remade - maybe one is enough, maybe one for as many originally existed. Beyond that, it would seem excessive to me.

    >8^)
    ER
     
  9. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
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    Very true but it is very hard to define original behaviour. Invariably two classic cars of the same model are never the same. My only experience of the real vs copy driving comparison is an 8C. Driving the real one was a humbling experience mixed with a little anxiety that I was driving such an original and valuable car. Driving the copy eliminated these feelings but was a much better driving experience as the car was understandingly tighter with a much crisper engine.

    Which was the more pleasurable experience ?

    I would definitely say driving the original as it was a memorable one off. However, I would still be very happy to accept the every day enjoyment of the copy compromise if it was parked in my garage
     
  10. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    #60 Vincent Vangool, Nov 11, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2013
    I think most of the copy will "never be the same" is more romantic then the truth of the actual experience. I'm sure the Pepsi challenge of both the real and the fake would stump many Tifosi, as did the GTO that ran in many races while the real one sat safely at home.

    Maybe it's not dead dead on but in reality it's so darn close that you'll never come across something else that will let you know what a 60's Ferrari comp car was really like. Not from watching some dude race around the track but from you actually driving it. Where else you gonna get to do that short of a bank robbery or franchising a floating brothel?
     
  11. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    The Columbo engine is already being made, even by Ferrari and others.

    I agree with Kare you would have to get the torsional rigidity of the chassis dead right, suspension roll centres and so many, many things. Saying that I know of a guy who was involved with the original GT40 who built a space frame one and through tuning of the suspension, etc. based on having driven real ones back in the day made it feel like a real one ... apparently.

    Whatever, it is never worth cutting up a real car especially when there are such a rich supply of really awesome classic cars to own and drive ... you can have a lot of fun in other lesser cars. We need to remind ourselves this occasionally.
    Pete
     
  12. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
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    I own and race a rebodied PF coupe so hypocritically I agree with you
     
  13. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
    27
    what? How is -,whatever is that Sharknose replica example - different from what I'm suggesting ?!?
     
  14. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
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    He's correct, and we say essentially the same thing. When looking to reproduce a SOHC Pontiac head (originally made by Brabham) for a resto project, I had located a single head in Australia and was looking like $10-15k to make the molds based on the existing head, then a few hundred per head to have them cast and another few hundred per head for machining. So, you're looking at $15k minimum for a set of heads without camshafts or hadware. A block is even more expensive, from those I've talked to that have done it, it was minimum $50k to produce a usable block as it takes R&D on the molds to get thicknesses right etc - and that was a relatively simple pushrod v8, not a Ferrari v12. Then figure you have some other small castings and you're looking at probably $100k just in tooling. Of course, you can produce a few engines after that, but it's not a cheap endeavor. Figure in labor, sourcing other hard to find parts (or tooling up to make them yourself) and you end up with a $600-$700k project. Worth it in the case of cars that cost 10x that, but most cars are not priced that high.
     
  15. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
    27
    Hi :)

    I can't thank you enough, this is very valuable info to me. Since you've done the whole research, what if most mechanical parts were available and I only need to to produce (from zero) chassis, shell and body parts ? How much do you estimate it'll cost ? Seeing as the Colombo engine and, as some stated earlier, transmission are already being made for purchse ?

    Thanks for passing by and taking the time.
     
  16. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

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    Do you know what the prices are for those repro engines and transmissions? They aren't cheap - you're probably looking at $100k just to buy those, if not more.

    The chassis and body will probably be the easiest stuff, they aren't complicated - just lots of man hours so if you're doing it yourself you're probably looking at $10-$20k in materials. The chassis were just tube steel (some were oval, but it's all available, you just cut and weld). It's the small stuff that will kill you - gauges, steering wheel, switch gear, lights, suspension uprights, brakes etc. that are correct are all very expensive, especially for the race cars - if you can even find them. That's why the popular route was to build a replica off of an existing GTE or similar 250, the powertrain and a lot of the gauges etc. could be re-used and that's the extremely expensive and hard to find stuff. The chassis could be cut to size and a new body made for cheap compared to the cost of sourcing all of the small stuff. What usually happens is that parts are used that are "close enough" and you end up with a replica that is close but really not a true replica as it uses a bunch of stuff that looks close to what the real car is but isn't. That's why the nut and bolt replicas are over $500k - the extra $300-$400k is due to using all of the correct parts or making them if not available. Keep in mind that if the columbo reproduction engine isn't the same spec as the car you're making, you'll be spending another $40-$50k getting the right cams, intake, carbs and headwork to make it right.

    Also, many of the old cars are different from example to example, have been crashed/restored over the years and there is a ton of hours in research trying to even figure out what would be correct on the car unless you're just duplicating a specific vehicle. If you're just after a close facsimile of a real car, you can save a lot of money by using the wrong heads, wrong transmission, different brakes/uprights, different gauges, fabricated trim pieces etc. etc. but then it's not accurate to the original.
     
  17. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
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    There are some very good companies already making components who will give you a quote

    Roelofs Parts - Home

    Classic Ferraris

    Crosthwaite & Gardiner
     
  18. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
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  19. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
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    I have heard that reliability of those V12's is very bad, apparently something to do with the fact that modern metallurgy and old designs don't mix. Don't know how reliable those rumours are.


    Onno
     
  20. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

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    not sure about reliability, but they certainly have power!
    it would be good if we could get the opinion from any of the owners or mechanics that run their Ferraris at the Goodwood TT, as most of them are running "those V12's"
     
  21. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
    27
    I thought these companies re-use exactly the same composites/steal/metal that has gone through exactly similar treatments as the original ones ..?
     
  22. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    I am also pretty certain that Classiche won't make a 128F motor for just anyone. I believe they are reserved for clients going thru Classiche who need one, or vintage Ferrari clients who need a racing spare. I would be shocked if Ferrari would simply sell a dozen for the enterprise that is making replicas.
     
  23. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    I believe the motor being discussed is the recreated ones by GTO Engineering.

    Complete 250 4L Engine (MS00020n) | GTO Engineering Ltd

    I have heard that Knock off's are made in China also? As are many parts. I'm not against total recreations but I also think there is a bad side of recreations.

    Limited number handcrafted artisan built tool room copies I can understand. Exact quality recreation by artists. But it would be awful if China was spewing mass produced copies of cheap Ferrari's into the world.

    Saw this today...

    Why it's not a good idea to show counterfeit Vespas at Italy's EICMA - Autoblog

    I have read this same thing. Not sure if true.
     
  24. Aristocrat

    Aristocrat Rookie

    Jun 13, 2013
    27
    I wouldn't worry about that. In the art world there are the paintings (the real stuff, the expensive stuff), then there are - in your words - "exact quality recreations by artists", then there are photo copies of the mona lisa in magazines, books and newspapers. The existance of the latter group never infringed on the first and second groups. Seeing as we are suggesting in this post the establishment of the equivalent of the second group in my example only for the classic car world, and we don't encourage passing them as true Ferrari's or Jaguars (in terms of badges, insignia and whatnot) never will the Chinese cheap stuff, recreations-crafted-by-artists and the real stuff mix. There will always be a clear separating wall between the three markets. Just like you see today with genuine Louis Vuitton products, $200+ well made kncock offs, and cheap knock offs. They have been around for a long time all three of them, never had we faced any problems distinguishing them. To each thier own.

    (I don't condemn the make of well made knock offs, coz they're being passed as the real stuff, just making an example)

    In fact I see it from another angle. Had the recreating of classic cars been legalised and made easy for investors, recreation would have become an industry with house hold names and brands and reputable companies would be behind it. Then the buyer would know where to go to get the good stuff. And will know when they see a much cheaper nameless company that it's the "Chinese stuff". So from where I see it, aforementioned snobbery is behind the Chinese market offerings not opening the doors wide to the recreation movement.

    Side note away from the discussion .... LOVED the Pur Sang stuff !! .. I'd appreciate it if anyone guided me to what other companies of this sort are out there for any type of cars. Who else makes very good quality, accurate recreation of any classic car ?

    Thanks.
     
  25. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

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    #75 275GTB, Nov 13, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

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