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Who Bought It ?

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by 300GW/RO, Oct 20, 2014.

  1. 300GW/RO

    300GW/RO Formula Junior

    Nov 7, 2010
    925
    east end LI
    Full Name:
    Jack
    A man named Paul, from the Catskills area of NY listed ebay last Wed 10/15/14
    1974 365 GT 4 2 + 2 red/blk w/red velour inserts, 8,000 original miles listed @ $40,000. I came across this ad from a secondary listing today and called Paul.

    Turns out "Car sold within 1 hour of being listed for full price". "Guy bought it and hauled it outta here within three days and took it up to F-40 motorsports, do you know about them"? I had to laugh....Paul bought the car 7 yrs ago BJ AZ auction and only drove it "about a 1000 miles"....."was time to sell her, she ran good, but the calipers were stuck". "I know the cars are going-up, but that's the number I wanted, so I sold it".

    So, who is the Lucky One among us?? No vin # listed in ad I saw, nor did I ask.
    Anybody talk to Wayne recently? Great looking car, good luck and great buy,

    Jack
     
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  3. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

    Mar 17, 2006
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    Brian White
    I think one of the recent threads mentioned this car. And the fact he bought it and took it to Wayne at F40.
     
  4. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
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  5. Scott Ales

    Scott Ales Karting

    Sep 13, 2014
    226
    Eustis, Fl.
    Full Name:
    Scott Ales
    Okay fellas, here is how it went down.

    On one of my occasional trolling episodes online I noticed the 365 but scrolled right past it. About two turns of the mouse wheel later it struck me.... hey, that's a 12 cyl. Ferrari with a stick for $40k! Now, I'm no stranger to the hobby / industry, that is true. And I will admit I owned Rod Stewarts 400i 10-12 years ago. The black cabriolet conversion. But I was not aware of the 400i heritage was the 365. So I did a little research over the next 20 minutes and will admit FerrariChat was a big part of that! I'm no stranger to high risk decisions so....

    Before I bore everyone to sleep telling the story any further I'm first going to ask if you want to hear it. If so, I will be happy to explain how I came to the decision to offer $39k instead of hitting the Buy It Now at $40k. It's kind of interesting and funny, I think.

    Yes, it is at Wayne's place now being freshened up. No big issues thus far and Paul was a real pleasure to buy the car from.

    Cheers!
     
  6. tomc

    tomc Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 13, 2014
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    Put me in the ”Heck Yeah” column. Thread subscribed. Popcorn popping!...T
     
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  8. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Dec 31, 2005
    6,885
    lexington ky usa
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    mitchell barnes
    tell your story
     
  9. Scott Ales

    Scott Ales Karting

    Sep 13, 2014
    226
    Eustis, Fl.
    Full Name:
    Scott Ales
    Coming soon.

    Okay, I have responsibilities this morning at church and a quick trip to to Ft Myers this afternoon right after lunch. So later tonight I will fill you all in. I think you'll enjoy the background and thought process behind my decision. And if you don't own a 365 GT4 2+2 or 400i you may wish you did after reading my mini white paper on the subject!

    Till later...
     
  10. 300GW/RO

    300GW/RO Formula Junior

    Nov 7, 2010
    925
    east end LI
    Full Name:
    Jack
     
  11. Scott Ales

    Scott Ales Karting

    Sep 13, 2014
    226
    Eustis, Fl.
    Full Name:
    Scott Ales
    Let me give this a shot now. I have no formal writing skills or experience. My grammar, spelling and sentence structure will be as good as Microsoft Word can provide, so go easy on me please!

    My intent here is to provide a glimpse into the psychology of why I bought the 365 GT4 2+2 and suggest an "opinion" of why owning one right now is a very special experience.

    For over 38 years I have been drawn to cars and searching for them. It didn't matter that I couldn't afford to buy them. I imagine I’m in a pretty large club in that sense! My first memory of this was picking up a "Wheeler Dealer" black and white magazine in 1975 on the way to our grandparents house for Thanksgiving in Maquoketa, Iowa. The paper was very thin, felt and looked exactly like newspaper and left ink on your fingers from turning the pages. For whatever reason I developed a habit which sticks to this day, always starting from the back going to the front. Can't explain it, that's just the way it worked out. So I suppose Einstein's concept of doing something a thousand times or more will make you an expert would apply here. But I have never felt like an expert at anything.

    I have always been and will go to my grave, a certifiable "Motor Head". If it has a motor of any kind I have interest, it doesn't even need to move. The more unique it is the more interest I have. I bought my first car as it sat out in front of a house in Muscatine, Iowa at the age of 13. It was 1975 and the car was a 1971 Mustang Mach 1 with a 351 Cleveland and a 4 speed. It was a Dark ivy Green with a black sport interior. It was NOT for sale but I found the owner who was painting the house for a friend and he agreed to sell it for $3,200. At 14, my mother persuaded the local school officials to give me a permit to drive back and forth from our farm to school, what a blast that was! My dad was a Ford guy so I was too. By the time I was 19 my wife (still to this day) and I were living together and we were able to buy my dream car, a 1975 DeTomaso Pantera. I drove it one day before the engine puked. Since I had rebuilt several Ford V8s in my pickups by then I was not scared of the project. The result was a complete addiction to performance and speed! It didn't hurt that one of my father's customers had given me rides in their Ranchero 428 Cobra Jet, Torino Super Cobra Jet, and 1969 Boss 429 Mustang! Which are all fully restored and still owned by that family this day. We sold the Pantera for $21,000 at an auction in April 1987.

    So the cast is fully set. I'm now a car guy and by 1986 our family trucking business goes bankrupt. I restored and drove the 1971 Kenworth and lowboy rig which had to be sold along with the other 13 trucks. I needed a JOB!!! So I called Prescon Motors in Davenport, Iowa and told the sales manager I would be there Monday to sell cars. I never interviewed or applied. Just showed up Monday morning with a tie on and started studying brochures. We sold Mercedes, Jaguar, and Datsun/ Nissan. It took me a year and a half to figure out I could sell on my own with just a little money.

    My first purchase in the buy low/ sell high world was a 1984 Corvette which I sold at Dana Mecum's second collector car auction ever. It was now 1989 and with two auctions under my belt, the Pantera and Corvette, I was hooked. Now for the Ferrari connection. As you all know, Enzo's passing in 1988 marked the beginning of a huge run-up in the collector car world. Everything was going bonkers. The only electronic marketplace that existed was IAX, International Auto Exchange. I was a member then and as such had the privilege to see 60+ other highline car dealer's inventory through a computer and phone line on my desk. Yes, we were trading cars electronically in 1988! So the only other places to see the values were magazines and newspaper ads. Remember those? I used to go to the Clinton, Iowa public library every week to review the big city Sunday papers for leads. I watched Hemmings like the bible it is. Any place I could find values and how they were changing provided insight others didn't have.

    So here was our first really big play. We partnered with a restoration shop in Clinton that is still in business today, he had the financial connections and I had the time and passion for deals. Back at the first dealership I worked at we had traded for a 1974 Jaguar XKE V12 Roadster with 38k miles. In 1987 we allowed the customer $8,500 as a trade. The dealership had the car repainted the correct Primrose Yellow for about $5,000. It sat on the showroom floor offered at $20,000 for a year. Finally, a school teacher in my old home town of Muscatine bought the car for an undisclosed amount (less than $20k) after I no longer worked there. I tracked him down through state records and asked if the car could be for sale. He said maybe and that I should see the car before we discussed a price. The short version is that I bought the car for $27k the next week. The day after I bought it, I sold it to Moore Jaguar in St Louis. Larry Merly was the manager who I knew through IAX. He sold it to another dealer for $50k and that person sent it to an auction where it sold for $78k. So within one and a half years the car went from $8,500 to $80k. I cautioned my wife to not expect that type of return any time soon.

    This is when my friend Rob Isringhausen (God rest his soul) was buying Testarossa's and selling them for $300k. It was a wonderful experience and we all obviously know it is happening again. It took about a year to a year and a half for things to wind up back in the eighties. And the Japanese buyers were certainly a big part of it all. You may note that the current run-up on collector car (limited production + desirable cars) values began more predominantly about a year to a year and a half ago. Why is that significant?

    Hmm....
    Who passed away a couple of years ago? Who was an arch rival of Enzo Ferrari?
    If you didn't get that question immediately..."You might NOT be a car guy!
    Carroll Shelby of course.

    The point I am trying to make is this. History is absolutely repeating itself. There are a multitude of variances and differences to be sure. And the talking points can be debated for an endless session of hours or days. But there is one absolute point that cannot be debated or argued. The Vacuum! At least that is what I call it.

    The Vacuum is when a person desires a particular owning, driving, or investment experience in or around a vehicle. Should the asset being pursued have an acquisition value which has advanced for whatever reason beyond the capability of the acquirer they have only a few options.

    * Make more money so you can pay more..
    * Wait for a bargain or less knowledgeable seller.
    * Buy a lesser version with similar traits for less money.

    It has been my observation that typically the most exclusive and or rare assets set the market up or down. Please notice I used the term "Typically". As this plays out, the less desirable and or rare assets take some time to nestle up to the percentage spreads. Let's cheat and use the Mercedes SL market. If 300SLs from the 50s double in value then it is reasonable to presume the terribly anemic 190, Pagoda, and even 107 chassis cars will (and they have) follow. But there is some time for that all to happen. And since these cars came from Germany when new, it is reasonable to presume also that the German collectors will absorb the local offerings before looking across the proverbial pond. So let's simplify this a bit. There are two significant markets, Us and European. Not to take anything away from Japan, China, Dubai, Mexico and all the other wonder places in the world. It truly is a global market now. And that is the most significant distinction I want to make between the 80s explosion and today. The good old inter-web will make this run last longer in my opinion. I hate making predictions like this but I am doing it with our money, why not make the statement too! And since Ferrari hails from over there it is also fair to assume that if the values rise it will first happen over there.

    So, why did I buy the 365 GT4 2+2 for $6,000 more than Paul paid for it at Barrett Jackson in 2006? It's totally caught in the vacuum of all other front engine V12 Ferrari models. Maybe the 400i is a bit behind the 365 but rest assured, they are absolutely NOT going down in value. And as is evidenced by the sale this weekend of the blue 365 GT4 2+2 for $118k US with buyer's Premium, and the prototype in Monterey this past August, the market agrees. Also, a brief review of current offerings similar in nature is well in advance of the previous market values or those printed in guides. I can't count the number of cars we have owned that are worth 2-10 times more than we bought them for in years past. I won't list them here and continue to bore you but there are hundreds. This finally brings us to the ultimate reason I bought the 365.

    FUN FOR FREE!
    In the months to come I will have the good fortune of the exact same DRIVING experience as person who owns a $750k Daytona. No, it doesn't look the same on the outside. But neither does my bank account! You can all connect the rest of the dots to understand where my head is at. But this is what I was thinking while considering Paul’s car late at night on eBay.

    * 320 Hp of V12 Ferrari up front
    * 6 Weber carburetors
    * A manual shift driving experience
    * Unmatched sound
    * ZERO risk of depreciation
    * Strong likelihood of financial gains
    * Extremely modest investment

    All for $40k? Dahh!!! I offered $39k instead of clicking the "Buy It Now" at $40k because my wife asks me EVERY time I buy something, "Where is it." She knows it costs $1,000 virtually ever time. Domestic tranquility is wonderful and a little discipline is good too!



    The last point I will offer is my response to those that meet me at auctions when I am offering cars. I often hear, "Oh, you're a dealer." Implying somewhat that those of us that have followed their passions DEEP into the hobby are scalpers, or disgusting flippers. Not always of course, but often. I always respond this way, "Yes I have bought and sold many cars over the years but I have only one wife. And I understand from others, my way is the less expensive way!"

    We're thrilled with the purchase and look forward to the times we can use the car. My intentions are to sell the car anytime for $150k - $200k. And I really don't care if it never happens.

    Cheers and please accept my sincere apology if this was a waste of your time.

    Now you know who bought the car.


    Scott
     
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  13. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
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    Russell Schacter
  14. showme1946

    showme1946 Karting

    Oct 9, 2011
    77
    Columbia, Missouri
    Full Name:
    George Rickerson
    Great post, Scott! Thanks for taking the time to do it. Inspiring, entertaining, compelling. Best post on FC today.
     
  15. godabitibi

    godabitibi F1 Veteran

    Jan 11, 2012
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    Claude Laforest
    It was a good reading. Thanks!
     
  16. Scott Ales

    Scott Ales Karting

    Sep 13, 2014
    226
    Eustis, Fl.
    Full Name:
    Scott Ales
    It was my pleasure only if it was pleasurable for you.

    Your welcome.
     
  17. 300GW/RO

    300GW/RO Formula Junior

    Nov 7, 2010
    925
    east end LI
    Full Name:
    Jack

    For PICS ! thanks for the post,

    Jack
     
  18. tomc

    tomc Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 13, 2014
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    Best post on FC this month! Enjoyable and inspirational story. Thank you for sharing...T
     
  19. JoeLo

    JoeLo Karting
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 19, 2006
    182
    Great stuff!
     
  20. Scott Ales

    Scott Ales Karting

    Sep 13, 2014
    226
    Eustis, Fl.
    Full Name:
    Scott Ales
    Me too!

    As soon as Wayne finishes and we ship her home I'll shoot a bunch!
     
  21. 300GW/RO

    300GW/RO Formula Junior

    Nov 7, 2010
    925
    east end LI
    Full Name:
    Jack
    Wayne should do a CCC segment on some of the "other" Ferrari's...starting with yours. We've ALL seen too many 275 gtb/4's, 250's of all stripes, 50's machines and the like. Showcase the cars that are more obtainable to the 'common man'.

    Maybe WC can take some shots and post'em on up !

    Jack
     
  22. kerrari

    kerrari F1 World Champ
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    Oct 22, 2004
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    Karen H.
    Great story! Enjoy the drives while you wait for the next buyer - lot more fun than looking at a 'portfolio' I reckon.
     
  23. vecchio59

    vecchio59 Karting

    Nov 25, 2011
    199
    Savona, NW Italy
    Full Name:
    Marco
    Thanks Scott, great stuff !
    May I use it with my wife or is patented ? may I make the connection between "owning a 365" and "staying together for life" :) ???
     
  24. Scott Ales

    Scott Ales Karting

    Sep 13, 2014
    226
    Eustis, Fl.
    Full Name:
    Scott Ales
    You can try, but I don't want to be responsible for any negative consequences! Ferrari made 521 365 GT4 2+2 models I understand, our creator made only "1" Debra! Not sure why I was so fortunate to have landed the car but I'm more surprised I have her. And she doesn't follow this forum so don't think I'm just buttering her up.
     
  25. Scott Ales

    Scott Ales Karting

    Sep 13, 2014
    226
    Eustis, Fl.
    Full Name:
    Scott Ales
    Okay, it's been 7 months since I last posted about our 365 experience thus far. The folks at F40 were able to service her and repair some rust issues in the rockers. They also prepped the underbelly and treated the car to a proper coating to prevent any further surface rust issues. The previous owner stored the car in a slightly moist garage. No serious damage but we didn't want it to go any further.

    Somewhere around 3-4 months ago we received a call from the transport company (enclosed) that was hired to bring her home. Unfortunately the hydraulics on their trailer had failed at an in-opportune time and damaged the roof, rear glass, and stainless trim. I never get wound up about these types of situations, things happen. They're great people ( transport company) and reacted immediately to our request to send it to a shop of our choice. We only considered two options, one being Wayne's shop and the other in Chicago. They had an open spot in a trailer heading to Chicago that day so we went with that option. So, off to Chicago to my friend Tom Snellback's shop, The Last Detail.

    Over the last few months 18037 has been treated to a full trim off, panels removed respray. Top to bottom. We decided to stay with the color instead of returning to the original shade of White. Import papers state "Blue" so it is a true American car, started out white, then went to blue, and is now red, get it? Red, White and Blue! Wayne had properly refinished all the wheels and did the cosmetics on the underside. Tom took care of the rest. I still have to work out the bugs which I am sure will be significant. But throughout this 7 month+ process both shops commented on how well the car started, ran, and didn't leave spots on the ground! A good start I guess.

    I did receive a nice binder with history from 1985-2006. Receipts for 9 of the 21 years and a factory original operator's manual. Thanks (NOT) Barrett Jackson, for writing your lot # on the inside cover of this document. 646.1 Now that is a part of internet history!

    1974 FERRARI 365 GT4 2+2 COUPE - Barrett-Jackson Auction Company - World's Greatest Collector Car Auctions

    History and records show San Francisco importation in Nov. 1984. EPA and DOT papers are first records. Service and parts totals for 1984 - 2006 = $23.372. No history of engine or trans rebuilding but a clutch was installed along with seals for various engine issues while it was out. Maybe explains why there are few if any leaks. Ownership goes from Ca. to Chicago in 2005, then Az. in 2006 late. Auctioned in Jan. 2007 to Paul in Ct. who I bought the car from. So as far as the mileage, it is consistent from importation in 1984 through today. We're going to try to search the history of 1984 and back now. It would be interesting to see who owned the car from new and where it came from!

    18037 should be loaded next week and if all goes well I'll be tweaking the old girl with new lipstick to run and drive reliably. At least as much as she can be given the circumstance of what it is. Pictures soon to follow! We're getting excited. And by the way, I have only heard her run to date. Haven't put the first mile on the odo in 8 1/2 months!

    The first thing I have to do are the brake calipers. They're sticking to the rails I presume and not fully releasing. I noticed a post pertaining to that and will likely remove all 4 and send out for rebuild. Should look great peaking through those newly refinished wheels!
     
  26. JAnastas

    JAnastas Karting

    Nov 24, 2013
    130
    Los Angeles
    Totally agree w/ Scott's POV on the market and the "vaccum" effect.

    While I swing smaller and less frequently, over time, I've followed the same approach to buying:

    - Bought a C3 '70 LT-1 when the C2 '67 big blocks went crazy
    - Bought an '86 930 when the long-nose pre-'74 cars went crazy
    - Bought an early R107 when the Pagodas went crazy
    - Bought an '84 400i/auto when are Ferrari's started going crazy, was looking for a 308 GT4 too, but I could not find the right car before they got swept up in it, but I sensed that one too

    I also like the "overall solid, but cosmetic fixers" market, turning 3-/4 cars into 3+/2 cars for a little added "pop" on top of market appreciation. No #1 restorations. Simply try to move them "up one full number."

    The 400i has been tougher to polish as the current value limits my ability to invest and keep ROI; and an all new leather dash cost more than I was planning.

    I'm hoping - like the 930 - I can "do what is needed" and then further appreciation allows me to do more (I did $5-$6K off the bat w/ the 930, paused, and the market allowed me to do another $7K and hold even better equity).

    Ah, what a hobby...

    My wife is reading over my shoulder and rolling her eyes.
     
  27. Scott Ales

    Scott Ales Karting

    Sep 13, 2014
    226
    Eustis, Fl.
    Full Name:
    Scott Ales
    Hah!

    That is so funny. I constantly call this my Hobby business while my wife of 34 years states, "It's NOT a hobby for me!"
     
  28. Scott Ales

    Scott Ales Karting

    Sep 13, 2014
    226
    Eustis, Fl.
    Full Name:
    Scott Ales
    She finally landed!

    Drove the car for the very first time. WOW, I absolutely love it. The sound is just wonderful. We'll be shooting pictures tomorrow and will post a link.

    Cheers
     

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