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Where is the 400/412 Market REALLY at?

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by full_garage, Dec 24, 2010.

  1. 1974gt4

    1974gt4 Formula 3
    Owner

    Sep 19, 2009
    1,496
    in my garage...
    Full Name:
    Dr. Italiani
    #201 1974gt4, Jan 20, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
    """PS The car you bought is stunning. The red interior is lavish. The silver paint impeccable. Well done.

    I can do without the auto, but that is just ME. <><><> Bravo and Congratulations Jay."""


    As correctly pointed out by Sam, there is an adventure in finding the right car. I happened to know about this car in particular.

    It didn't belong in my home, but obviously yours Jay.
    Congratulations.

    "Can't we all just get along?" :)
    (Rodney King)

    PPS. My Dino GT4 is GOLD with a RED interior. Factory combo...think THAT coulor combination is for everyone??? NO ! Just me !! Yippee...
     
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  3. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,208
    Sarasota Florida
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    Jay
    Thanks- Yeah as I indicated in this thread I drove as many cars as I could- And I appreciate this car for what it is- Ferrari's ultimate Hotrod Luxury car- and a bad left knee means I need a pretty perfect driving position to be able to deal with a manual- My 996 and Carrera 3.2 are pretty good on the knee but my 328 was hell in traffic.

    I think you'd be surprised at the grunt a well setup 412 auto can deliver- I had no problem blowing past a few startled 997 and A8 drivers on the 405...

    That said- I did drive an auto 400i that simply would not rev at all... After I looked at it the service manager at the dealership called to let me know the car was off the market "It's running so well now the guy said he's going to keep it forever!".
     
  4. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 11, 2003
    6,084
    Central NJ
    Jay,

    Congratulations!

    Sincerely,

    Art S.
     
  5. alastairhouston

    alastairhouston Formula Junior

    Apr 19, 2009
    575
    Largs Scotland UK
    Full Name:
    Alastair Houston
    Jings that looks imaculate. Congratulations. I really like the colour combo too.
    Regards
    Alastair
     
  6. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    so Jay, "Where is the 400/412 Market REALLY at ?" ?
     
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  8. RVL Saratoga

    RVL Saratoga Formula 3

    Aug 27, 2010
    2,421
    Saratoga Springs, NY
    Full Name:
    Robert
    One buyer and one seller smaller, lol
     
  9. Highmiler

    Highmiler Formula Junior

    Dec 8, 2010
    414
    Missouri
    Full Name:
    Greg
    Congratulations on your find!
    You car is identical to my '84 400i except for the little speaker looking items on the right and left ends of the dash. The red upholstery really isn't as imposing as it photographs is it?
    Greg
     
  10. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,208
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    Brett-

    Well who knows really? It seemed to me that the numbers mentioned here- $20'Ks for "Driver" quality 400i auto, Low $30'ks for fresher 412 autos- with 10-15% premium for manual transmission is about right. Make exceptions on the low side for cars that need everything and exceptions on the high side for either exceptional condition original cars with clear and documented histories, or fully restored cars with receipts. I've seen asknig prices on those cars up to $60K. Is that a realistic price?? I think so, but as with any commodity at the very tippy top of the market, finding buyers is harder.

    The market- that is the actual world where cars change hands in a matter of months, not years- seems to be roughly the same as it has been for a decade or so- the "Wedge" cars are still unloved. While magazines and owners have trumpeted that 308 GT4s and 400is were the "next big thing" it has yet to materialize. Will it?? Perhaps.

    I actually think not.

    I LOVE the look of the 412 and I LOVE the look of the 308 GT4- love em. But practically everyone else hates them- and to compare a 412 to a GTC or a 550.. well- to the uninitiated they don't compare favorably.

    Over time as they rust away and repairs outstrip the value of the cars there will be less and less on the road, and that scarcity alone will make them worth something, But when people think of aspiring to own a "Ferrari", they are not thinking of the shape of these cars. And that's coming from an owner who spent pretty good dough to purchase one of these.

    When I was shopping my daughter asked my Wife, "Why is Dad looking at cars that should be on "Cops"??", and my wife commented, when i showed her pictures of the 5 or 6 cars I was considering, "Look, you do what you want to do, but that is the ugliest car I've ever seen". (I hope she changes her mind when she sees it in the flesh)

    I think they are all WAY too cheap- I bought a concours quality V12 Ferrari for the price of an average 328. But by the same token a really average 412 has been on ebay for 2 years with a buy it now of $36K. As with anything in the exotic and classic car market- it's about desirability, rarity, condition and history. The 412 I bought ticks 3 of those 4 boxes.

    For me personally- having a car this is really unique (2 Silver/Red 412s EVER brought into the USA according to one source) makes the purchase price and upkeep worth it. Most other buyers would probably prefer sleeker looks, a more modern car and better performance. With 348s and 355's so cheap now- and 456s and 550s dropping too, it puts the 80s cars in a tough spot- for now. Check back with me in ten years!
     
  11. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,208
    Sarasota Florida
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    Jay
    Yeah stock location- but aftermarket speakers.

    Yeah I put this car at the bottom of the list due to the garish interior- I saw the blue/cream cars and the tan/brown cars and for me personally- the blue and brown dash treatments looked very dated. I guess if you ever owned a 70's Mercedes you'll never be able to live with a blue interior again!

    The red interior is completely different in the flesh- very regal! Just a completely different experience.
     
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  13. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    pictures just don't do them justice...with the exception of the pure profile shot, they photograph flat-out bad...but the in the flesh reality is much different.
    it does help pictures if there is someone in the car, because then there is perspective on the size of the car...which isn't big...even small when parked beside a 3 series BMW.
    in motion, they are pure poetry and i think your wife will very likely end up loving it...it's pure class.

    if i were to compare all the smiles and excited stares against the sour looks i've recieved over the years, well, it would be a complete wash out...like 1000-1 in favour of it.
    trust me, you will get nothing but 'props' when you're behind the wheel...from young and old alike.

    and you're not suggesting that, value wise, 550's are doing outstanding by comparison, are you ? quite a few years newer, but they've got a way to fall yet...and will.
    as for looks, the front end of a 550 is surely the most beautiful thing ever created...which begs the question, who came up with the rear end ?

    but what i meant was, and let me be a little more specific, where is the 412 market REALLY AT ? like REALLY AT ? ; )
     
  14. Highmiler

    Highmiler Formula Junior

    Dec 8, 2010
    414
    Missouri
    Full Name:
    Greg
    For what it is worth, I have owned a 1963 Porsche 356B since 1966. This car depreciated from the $2,600.00 I paid for it. For a long time such cars could be bought for the price of a VW. They were deteriorated, body parts were hard to find and engine overhaul cost more than the cars were worth. I know because I blew mine up a couple of times.

    The 356 values have rebounded nicely in recent years though mine is still not for sale.

    I suspect the same will be true of these Ferraris. Over time there will be fewer and fewer of them and there will always be people who want one, are intimidated neither by the name on the hood nor by the complexity of the V-12.

    In the meantime our cars sound wonderfully, are fun to hunt parts for and are exceptionally good road cars.

    Greg
     
  15. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Sep 5, 2002
    28,585
    MA
    Full Name:
    John
    So Jay, the asking price was $49,950, what did you end up paying for the car?
     
  16. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,208
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    $36,900
     
  17. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    that would seem to be extremely well bought...thanks for sharing that...Congrats again !
     
  18. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Sep 5, 2002
    28,585
    MA
    Full Name:
    John
    Good bargaining and a good deal IMO. BTW, that car was reported as sold at Barrett Jackson in 2002 for $39,960 including buyer's premium.

    Hope that you have some great times with that car and that I'll get a chance to see it somewhere around the Ferrari enthusiast gatherings in New England.
     
  19. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,208
    Sarasota Florida
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    Jay
    Yep I saw all of that months ago when I googled the VIN- All of the Barrett Jackson auction paperwork etc. is with the car... At least $30K spent since then on maintaining the vehicle and restoring any areas of concern- again, none of that reported in the dealer's listing but when I visited they casually flopped this large folder of receipts on the table "this is all we got"... Exhaust, tires, A/C, interior repairs, accumulators, fuel injection, starter motor, water pump- all done in the past 3 years. Barrett Jackson included paperwork from the previous owners with receipts as well.

    After viewing enough of these cars at various price points nothing can prepare you for laying down on your back with a flashlight and looking up at a PERFECT detailed undercarriage- no rust, scratches or marks- Other sellers stated to me their car was the "Best available- maybe the best in the world" condition wise- but i don't think they were aware of what a truly pristine original car looks like.
     
  20. GreggG

    GreggG Karting

    Jul 14, 2008
    201
    New Jersey
    Jay,

    Well done and well bought, Sir! I, too, dig the color combination. I think the various silver colors suit the body style quite well. I'd like to mirror Brett's comments, in the metal, these cars look great, but then I guess you know that. It's amazing how poorly they photograph. I think your wife and daughter will appreciate the car more and more once they actually see it. There's an elegant simplicity to the design, which was extremely well executed within the design aesthetic of the day. You'll appreciate it more and more, as it's a car that you can actually drive and enjoy without the fear that a wrong turn could potentially damage your $300,000 investment. And I won't even mention how great they are on the road. Also, there's something special about bucking the trend a little. Hey, it's easy love a Daytona. Every time I go to a local event, there's at least two, sometimes more, in attendance. I am, however, the only one with a 365 gt4/2+2, and it's nice to be a little different.
     
  21. 1974gt4

    1974gt4 Formula 3
    Owner

    Sep 19, 2009
    1,496
    in my garage...
    Full Name:
    Dr. Italiani
    Wow, well bought.


    Now put your gun and mask away !

    For that price I should have looked at the auto harder. Well done, and thank you for sharing.

    There's just not alot of data about actually (dollars wise) transacted cars...
     
  22. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    so, thanks to Jay, we now know where the market is at for a mint, automatic 412...unfortunately, it's still pretty soft...

    but what about something a little rarer...like a 365 GT4 2+2...or rarer yet, a 400GT ?
     
  23. Highmiler

    Highmiler Formula Junior

    Dec 8, 2010
    414
    Missouri
    Full Name:
    Greg
     
  24. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,208
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    Brett

    Well as luck would have it I wound up with a 400i 5 speed as well- Made a low offer- guy accepted, then renegged, then we settled on a prettty cheap number, then the Silver car deal got done so I passed on the 5 speed, then the 5 speed got revisited- I just found it too cheap to NOT buy as well... It's the white 5 speed- 44121- with the freshly restored body, new interior, new TRXs, new Stebro exhaust from the headers back, rebuilt heads with valves and guides, new chain, and everything fairly well sorted. Been on the market for TWO years.. so while I find the car too cheap to not buy- NOBODY else on the planet did- cause it sat for years. So I got two cars making their way towards Boston soon- Which would make 3 Fcars in the garage this Spring... But the 365 GT4 2+2 ... maybe...

    Yeah market is so soft right now only for a few things- TR's are stupid right now- 308 GT4s ridiculously short money- 400/400i/412s are fairly cheap for "worn" cars- which makes it somewhat amazing that pristine untouched serviced cars are STILL cheap... go figure.

    But really- people think these cars are ugly- and they think 308 gt4s are ugly, and they think Testarossa's are nightmares to keep running so that's why they are cheap now and probably cheap forever. 308 GTS and GTb and 328's are gorgeous, and 328's fetch FAR more than more capable 348's and even more than many, many 355s. To me the 355 is TEN times the car, but now it's about perception not reality.

    So when both cars arrive and I get some time to see what they do or do not need- I'll keep everyone posted. I probably need my head examined since I now have three needy Ferraris that could easily be swapped for one clean 360 CS, but hey- I like diversity!
     
  25. Glaverbel911

    Glaverbel911 Karting

    Feb 20, 2010
    78
    Neustadt ADW/Toronto
    Full Name:
    R. Groß
    I cannot agree with you that Joe Public thinks these car's are ugly.. Far from it and not in my experience with mine where ever I park or drive..
    I think the perception will change once you've had the car out a few times and parked where people start approaching and paying you compliments...
    I think the lack of demand comes from the lack of knowledge and a fear of Ferrari parts and maintainance issues.
    What these car's need is some well deserved press finally to spark more enthusiasum.. A few good retro articles in magazines, another book or two on Ferrari 4 seaters and GT cars to spark interest and educate the public to create a more balanced supply and demand. I think a forum like this goes a very long way in helping and something like the 400Club oversea's is Fantastic.

    Hey !!! ,, we're all enjoying a Real V12 Ferrari that a was still built when Enzo was around at the factory and it had his blessings,,, thats good enough reason for me to own one.

    Regards, Robert
     
  26. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,208
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    Robert- Ugly? Heck I got two of em!

    I mean people who are shopping for Ferraris DO NOT want the look of the 400 or the 308 GT4- They want a 328.

    I think they look badass....
     
  27. Glaverbel911

    Glaverbel911 Karting

    Feb 20, 2010
    78
    Neustadt ADW/Toronto
    Full Name:
    R. Groß
    They are Badass Jay..,, thats the first thing i think everytime i open up the garage door's and see that gorgeous ass of my car !!! Let them keep there 328's...
     
  28. 4re Nut

    4re Nut F1 World Champ

    Mar 27, 2004
    15,004
    N of NOLA
    Full Name:
    Steve
    #225 4re Nut, Jan 26, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
    Congrats on the "full_garage"! :D
     

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