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Where is the 400/412 Market REALLY at?

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by full_garage, Dec 24, 2010.

  1. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    Feb 15, 2010
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    I've been in the market for a 400/412 for a little while now- Inquired about all the well known cars currently on the market- Seems to be an almost unfathomable disconnect between the "conventional wisdom" of what these things are worth and the prices currently being offered.

    I understand we have a limited production car, but there's a pretty limited demand as well given the length of time some of these cars have been on the market.

    I'm happy to pay a premium for the best example- but all of the "great" cars no the market right now are being offered by complete liars and charlatans... (Trust me- I've spoken to them)

    I'm not looking for a cheap car- just trying to gauge where the market is truly at.
     
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  3. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
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    auto or stick? series 1 or series 2? carb'd or FI? 365, 400, 400i, or 412?
     
  4. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    Yes- all of the above... I'm shopping.
     
  5. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

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    The market is so illiquid, very few cars actually change hands.
     
  6. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

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    Decide what you want and prepare to wait. The auto is okay, but the 5 speed makes it a different car. Carbs are awesome sounding, but don't like being woken up from a winter sleep.
     
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  8. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    Not my style...Life is short...I'm going to either buy something by Springtime or move on to the next completely illogical object of desire.
     
  9. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

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    If you know what you want, it may help shake the cars out of the woodwork.
     
  10. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    #8 full_garage, Dec 24, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2010
    I've got some fast cars- and I've driven at least a half dozen variants of the 365 2+2/400/412... I think ideally a 412 auto- cause I'm more interested in what the car IS than what it DOES... I dig the style of the car more than it's driving qualities- performance will always fall short of my other cars and this way the wife can drive it.

    But when the right car comes along at the right price- I'll know it....
     
  11. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

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    Anyone know where Jim Kanely's 412 is?
     
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  13. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
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    s/n?
     
  14. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

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    Need to do some digging, silver with red, I think FoA was trying to sell it ~10 years ago.
     
  15. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

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    maybe i'm misunderstanding the question...
     
  16. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

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  17. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    Guys- I don't think I made myself clear-

    I KNOW all the cars currently on the market- In all the dealers (they're all liars) and from all the private sellers (All Dreamers)... I've seen the silver/red 412 and the blue/tan ones in Florida and the silver one that recently sold for $30K in Ipswich MA.

    I'm trying to get a feel for the market- I have NOT been paying attention to the prices at which these cars have actually changed hands for over the past year and half or so.

    My gut is that 400s are roughly low 20s Auto, high 20s Stick- 412s low 30s auto high 30s stick- a little less for rough ones and a lot more for really clean ones... But the question is- what has been the real market price at which cars are changing hands for the past couple of years??

    When I bought my 355 approx 70% of the cars on the market were advertised at $60K-$70K, when real world said the street price was around 20% lower than that. I was lucky enough to purchase a car from a great dealer who was brutally honest with me, but I'm finding that harder to do given the small number of cars on the market.

    And yes- I understand the car will mostly like not appreciate over the years and the cost of ownership most likely will outstrip the purchase price over the life of my ownership- My fourth F-Car.. I get it.

    Probably not a question that can be answered- since the price is what I'm willing to pay- isn't it?
     
  18. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    Not sure how it's confusing Brett-

    A few cars have been on the market right now at prices that seem completely at odds with the various price guides.

    Perhaps the guides are wrong and these dealers are right- if so maybe someone here can chip in some anecdotal evidence.

    If not- the right car will come along that I can purchase at a price that seems to match my expectations from looking at the Ferrrari Market Letter and other sources.

    If you have anything available right now PM me-

    Jay
     
  19. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
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    A lot more cars trade hands than you're aware of. Most of the nice ones trade in private. Low 20's for an auto or high 20's for a stick won't get you anywhere near a nice example.
     
  20. thedoc

    thedoc Formula 3

    May 27, 2009
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    Sounds to me that your very hung up on price even though you say you have owned 4 Fcars. One would think that the most important comment and or ambition while searching for a 400 would be to search for the Best one available then figure out what repairs to the next best one might be worth (then add some money to this cause your guess will be low) then go back and buy the expensive one with all the work done to it cause it will be the bargain car!!!!!!! Even if it's more than what the "market letter" says. We are not talking GTOs here.
    I disagree with you comment about them not being investments long term at least . Especially if it's a stick which soon it seems will be stuff kids only talk about.
    If you can find a 100 point car for 25k buy it asap (as if)..... Or if the 99 point car is 40k
    Buy it as it will still be a bargain.

    Gary
    Espada
    8394
     
  21. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    Well yeah this is exactly why I started this thread- If I wanted a cheap car I would have purchased an ebay car- a bunch have traded hands lately. But every price guide I have seen here and in Europe suggest even the best manual-412's are low 40's tops- yet there are some in private hands asking much, much more than that.

    I have NOT been part of the 400/412 community so I have no idea what great examples are selling for- I only see the same "cars with stories" you see on the internet and they are priced high.

    Every car you see on the net right now has at least two lies in the listing- I've spoken to the owners... and I never deal with someone when the conversation starts with a lie.

    I assume that any Ferrari will require a decent sum to set it right at first, and a relatively stout fund to maintain it deal with the expected and unexpected service items.

    And sorry- nobody in the classic car business agrees that the 400/412 series are going to appreciate at any reasonable rate- I hope they are wrong because I'm going to buy one!
     
  22. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    Not hung up on price- hung up on value... aren't we all??

    Always have to decide between a less expensive car that might need a budget to set it straight or one that is sorted at the top of the market. The "Buy the best car you can afford" thing is sage advice- advice I have given to many prospective Ferrari purchasers- and I am looking for the best car I can find that "speaks" to me- but I also work for a living, and want to ensure that I am not overpaying- what's wrong with that?

    Never said I owned 4 fcars- Said this one would be my 4th- Been through a rough 308, then a very nice 328 that was just too small for me (I'm 6' 3") and now a delightful 355, as well as a dozen or so Porsches and an even larger number of Alfas.

    Just trying to get some first-person accounts of what good, bad and indifferent cars are actually selling for... But I do appreciate the opinions.
     
  23. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
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  24. kayakjack

    kayakjack Karting

    Mar 29, 2004
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    Could you give a couple of examples of the lies? Looks like the lies are written into the car's adverts. Not the sort of lie that comes out upon inspection of the car in person. What are the owners saying in the ads that is untrue?

    Jack
     
  25. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
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    Wow, where to start-

    One 412 is advertised as having the benefit of a complete repaint to a very high standard that cost a fortune- when in fact it has original paint with a few resprayed panels and the seller has no receipts- he just made it up. I asked the guy to fax or email over the receipts- He said it was too much trouble- every time I called him to go over the service history he was busy doing something else and never returned my calls. When he finally did call back he found the receipts too confusing to read and just said- "Look man, the car is great".. as if that should be enough for any purchaser.

    Other cars have been touted as having very recent and very expensive service histories- when in fact the last receipt is from 5 years ago and it was an oil change.

    It's like when I was looking at 355's and all the ebay cars said "Belt Service Done!!"- but of course it was done in 2004...

    Lots of older Ferraris are touted as winning a concours- when the concours was in 1998...Just the usual seller BS.

    Since today is Christmas Day- Merry Christmas everybody!
     
  26. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

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    I like it, but if it is the same combo that I think it is, it ususally doesn't photograph well.
     
  27. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

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    #25 brettski, Dec 25, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2010
    that made it much clearer for me...thanks.
    as for my sales inventory, it's been depleted of V-12's with the exception of the '73 365 GT4...which will go through our sympathetic restoration 'program'.
    the 400i and 400GT both went over the past few weeks...and for much, much more than than the numbers you've mentioned...it's like Stacy said.

    if you're interested in a beautiful, very well serviced Silver/Black Auto ('81), then let me know...i may be able to help...or maybe we could work on something else...

    Merry Christmas,

    brett, 705-435-1990
     

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