Where is the 400/412 Market REALLY at?

Agree but you need to go into any deal realizing that no one cares more about you than yourself.

You allude to that yourself with "complete liars", it's a matter of degree. Not telling you something may not technically be a lie but it is your responsibility to investigate what you are buying and rely only on your own evaluation.

You may trust, but verify with your own independent analysis.

Caveat emptor!

 

Possibly they think that they can sell to a sucker and don't want to bother with someone who actually knows something about buying an old Ferrari.

I looked and drove probably 7-8 different 5 speeds when I was looking for my car in 1998. Some were offered by reputable dealers (Wide World of Cars, Intrepid Motors, The Stable), others by dealers with unknown reputations and the remainder from private sellers. The one that I bought was from a private seller in California.

The most surprising and infuriating dealer was Wide World of Cars, a legitimate Ferrari dealer. They had an apparently nice 400i 5 speed buried in the back of one of their storage buildings, so I called and made an appointment to see and drive the car. They never bothered to pull it out, so I wasted a two and a half hour round trip plus the frustration of having to deal with an indifferent salesperson who didn't understand why I was not interested in buying the car without seeing it run and driving it. Oh, and it was massively overpriced as well. They finally decided nearly two years later that they wanted to sell it and dropped the price to something more market.

Fortunately I was traveling to the west coast a lot on business and so tacking on a car inspection to a business trip worked out pretty well for cars in Reno and in southern California.

 

I have talked to lots of car sellers both private and dealers about many cars in my life
and bought only a few of them. Sellers understand that most are looking. I suspect
the number of lookers to buyers goes up with Ferraris. Some thus say it is hard for a
seller to tell who is a legitimate and motivated buyer. The phone call establishes you
as a person with a voice and a personality. Although I may not fully agree with the
market strategy--I understand that philosopy.

The 400/412 market is thinly traded as has been observed. Accurate pricing information
is thus hard to come by. I have missed a deal or two on additional stable mates as
I offered less than the seller thought was a fair. Later I found out one seller paid the
auctioneer their percentage to sell it for just over 10% more than I offered.

In this market money talks and you take your risks with any offer.

-sc

 

From all of the foregoing, it seems to me that these cars have no "established" value due to a lack of volume in the changing of hands. The lack of volume suggests to me that those having these cars are keeping them. Those that set out get one will have to plan on rebuilding one from whatever condition the best that can be found happens to be exhibit.

I have one of 14 surviving examples of a 1940 US convertible and rebuilt it from a collection of, thankfully complete, junk. I don't think it should be so scary to expect to throw some cash into an old Ferrari. The support group exists and it is a lot bigger than than the one for the '40.

Owning one of these "old" Ferraris is, after all, a hobby and a quest and that is what makes it fun.

Greg

 

BINGO...WE HAVE A WINNER !

that is by far the most pragmatic thought i've EVER read regarding this model.

i've had a customer waffling over my '73 365 GT4 2+2 project for 8 months now and we keep covering the same ground over and over again...
it goes something like this...i say " its going to be $60-70K finished " (engine and gearbox rebuilds, mechanical overhaul, electrical, A/C, interior, body work/colour change)

he says..." hummm...i'm not sure because, according to Cavallino, that puts me a little further above 'market' then i'd like to be..."

i say..." i couldn't care less what Cavallino says...how would they know the market is for a 365 GT4 2+2 that's just had all that work done ??? "

there is no 'market' for that !!!...but it's an assinine objection that i can't overcome...and he knows it.

to me it boils down to a question as simple as this...

pick any '73 Ferrari you want and tell me me which one you get with the abovementioed work included for $65K ? precisely, so, do you want it or not ?

 

Buying any car as an "investment" is a mistake. It doesn't matter if it is a 400i or a 250 GT SWB. You may get lucky but it is just as likely that you will be disappointed.

With more modern cars such as 456s, Testarossas, 355s and 360's and 550's depreciating like bricks into the $50-70K range, the chances of a 400 series appreciating out of the $30's anytime soon is pretty low IMHO.

Heck, I'm just thrilled that the depreciation on my 400i over the past 12 years has been zero. Let the big swinging richards experience six figure depreciation amounts on their more modern Ferraris over a similar period of time.

 

my post had nothing to do with investment potentional or resale value...
but since you mention it, lets say you did pay $70K and 5 years from now it was worth $35K...who cares, small potatoes...gotta pay to play, right ?

"The problem is the resale value and future collectability of the car HAS TO be taken into consideration."
Why ?

"I would gladly buy the most expensive car on the market if I fell in love with it..."
It really doesn't sound like that to me...


i'm definitely not trying to be confrontational and i know that e-mails can loose their essence in translation...but from the beginning i'm getting really mixed signals in all of your posts...maybe it's just me.

 

No it isnt just you believe me! I am totally confused to the point where I might just ask everyone to club together and just give him a car for FREE but I feel somehow he just wouldnt be satisfied!
Fogbounds comments are really spot on.

 

BAWAHAHAHAHA !

 

it's like Greg said...first you have to love the model...and then you might just have to create one to "love"...

that's exactly what we're doing on the 1978 400GT right now...

and i'm not pretending that i don't have a clue what Full Garage is talking about...i think i get most of it...
but there is definitely also some seemingly contradictory stuff mixed in there...but again, e-mails can be funny that way.

 

that made perfect sense to me...
please keep us posted !

 

Excellent
cant wait to see the pics of the new car when you get it in spring. Please dont buy it unless you are sure of the following.
You actually like it
Its for you or the wife
Which model you like
Investment or not
Sure about what you feel at the time
A perfect example or needing some work
can you really trust anyone or not.

 

I get what Jay is saying: he wants what he wants and is even willing to pay a fair premium for the "right" car. The difficulty is in determining the difference between a "fair" premium and a sucker price when the market for a car is so small and thinly traded.

It's wise to be as informed as possible about the market, but in the end, it comes down to a subjective decision. What Jay finds reasonable and is willing to pull his checkbook for may be ridiculous to someone else, and vice versa. That's the beauty of the marketplace.

Now, Brett, about that 365...;-)

 

I have been reading this post with great interrest. I bought a 412 stick shift with full history 12 years ago. i always had it maintained by top mark specialist and kept the car in very nice condition.

The blue chiaro met with beige interior makes it a nice combination. All maintenance records are present and service book from day 1.

Then two/three years I decided to sell it. Owning also a convertible Ferrari made me realise I do not use it enough. I then faced precisely the same problem as is discussed here. What is a reasonable asking price.

I also discovered that there where a reasonable number of cars for sale that needed 10-15K or more to get right. Although they would never achieve full service history status. Top end cars meaning less than 20.000 miles are very rare as this model was the most used car in the Ferrari range when it was new.

I decided to price it around the price of a car with work plus half the cost of getting suchs cars right. The car instantly got offers slightly above the price of rough ones. Any other potential buyers where either looking for the car that may not exist or simply could not make up their minds for the same reasons. Yes they liked the car but with cheaper cars available they would risk loosing money on it.

I seriously considered an offer but then realised the reverse. I truly love the car (365/400/412) and for that money would not be able to buy another later in that condition.

That is I think what you are experiencing also. The bad onces are for sale. The good onces also but only if the price is reasonable and for now owners that love these cars and are not in need to sell will simply keep them unless the price is right in their mind.

If you really are a serious buyer then your car is out there. Take into account that sellers will have had they portion of people that are not really interrested and work with that. Ebay I doubt is the right place to look but may have that wrong.

As for me. I took the car of the market. Sleep better as the feeling of seeing her go was uncomfortable. I do think as more rough cars drop out or get restored at some point value will stabilize but as 4 seaters they will never go to extreme values even if they are extemely rare.

Keep looking and take your time. I am sure really nice ones will appear (the only argument i am lost on, concern an auto so your wife can drive. Believe me unles you are really in love with the model you will not appreciate driving it. It needs to grow on you.)

Happy hunting.

Talking about bad onces being scrapped. Does anyone have a reasonable idea how many are left?

 

Who cares what it does in the future. In the future we're all going to be dead anyway. The question should be "did you enjoy the drive?"

 

^
Eric, just so there's no misunderstanding...you're qouting a quote that i quoted...; )

remember, i'm the guy whose into his 400a for double or triple what i could get for it...and couldn't be happier...75 000km's and counting since '01

 

Brett,

No worries, I was making a general statement. I think what so few people get about these cars is how good they are for what they were designed to do. I still don't see how anyone could buy a similar Mercedes or BMW grand touring car and watch it depreciate $50k over a few years when they could have one of these instead.

One of my favorite all time moments with the 365 was when a local Fchatter went for a drive with me in his 328. "I couldn't keep up" was his comment about starting from a dead stop. I'll own ours as long as I can afford to keep it fed and watered.



Cheers,
Erik

 

This is not a plug but there is a guy who is trying to answer this question.
You can find him at <www.ferrari400.com> also know as The Ferrari 365, 400, 412 Registry.
He has about 10% of the production found and probably more as the site is way behind in maintenance. I suppose like all of us, the proprietor is busy. It is a pretty interesting site.

Would it be too much of a leap to think the the "market" is $30K to $70K depending on how much paper work comes with the car and lucky you happen to feel?

Greg

 

Been buying and collecting interesting cars for over 50 years. I have never bought any one car with the thought of making money. When you buy a so called "restored" car(which is the most over used word in the automotive world), you had better be prepared to buck up and spend lots of dollars to actually fix the vehicles short comings and believe me there will be plenty.

If you are a newbie and thninking you can buy a 400-412, to inhance your portfolio, do yourself a favor and just sit on your wallet. There are just a hand full of Ferrari's that are good investments, most are really not.

I have never lost a dollar on any of my collector cars for this simple reason, I buy the car I like not what someone tells me to buy. I am not overly interested in overall condition, if I like the car I buy it, because I know from nearly 50 years in this hobby I AM going to spend money to take it where I want it to be. I plan on that going in and I pay accordingly.

Take our 400i Cabriolet, I purchased it here from a poster, sight unseen. I took his word for the condition both mechancal and appearance wise. We agreed on a price over the phone and based on photos. Candidly I paid $15 grand 2 years ago. Today I have spent no mechanical money on this car. I did spend some cosmetic dollars which made my wife happy. Today we have driven this Ferrari nearly 5000 miles with nary a mechanical hic up. If the experts here figure that value of a 400-412 at 30 grand, I guess I have added value to my portfolio. As a side bar when I visited the factory in May we discovered this is a factory cabriolet, but I did not factor that into the value equasion.

As I mentioned earlier I have never lost one dollar on any of my cars, I have a very simple formula, I pay what I feel is right for me and then I never sell any of my cars. Are they investments ask my heirs after I've departed..................

Howard Musolf
1981 308gtsi
1982 400i Cabriolet
Maserati Spider
Lotus Esprit Turbo
2 many brass era cars