News

What is the value of a clock tag?

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by tx246, Mar 13, 2005.

  1. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 4, 2003
    5,556
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Shawn
    obviously, as discussed in the "daytona hang tag" thread, there are two styles of clock tags (push and pull). i have yet to see one of these on ebay (either variety). based on the recent tack cloth sales, what is fair market value for a clock tag?
     
  2. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    14,952
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Whatever sombody is willing to pay for it I suppose. These decals are a funny thing to get pricing for. I would think that because it is from a Ferrari you could get maybe 25 bucks for it.
     
  3. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
    9,070
    CHNDLR
    Full Name:
    Scott
    The clock tag is not a decal but was attached to the clock set knob by a string.
     
  4. pauls

    pauls Formula Junior

    Apr 25, 2004
    417
    #4 pauls, Mar 13, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  5. Sfumato

    Sfumato F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2003
    9,714
    Llanfairpwllgwyngyll, Anglesey, Wales
    Full Name:
    Angus Podgorney
    #5 Sfumato, Mar 13, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  6. pauls

    pauls Formula Junior

    Apr 25, 2004
    417
    The Dino tag says:

    "To have the clock started:
    1- Push and turn.... vs.
    1- Pull and turn....(Daytona)
     
  7. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 4, 2003
    5,556
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Shawn
    #7 tx246, Mar 13, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  8. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    42,475
    Texas!
    I think this says all that needs saying...

     
  9. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 4, 2003
    5,556
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Shawn
    dale,

    i agree, most of this stuff is just junk. it's no different than the wiping cloth that came in the owners manual pouch. we all know what those felt cloths bring today, after 30+ years of waiting to be trashed. i guess the procrastinators finally win for once.
     
  10. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    42,475
    Texas!
    I have no problem with folks getting their jollies chasing down this stuff. Hey, we all have our problems. You don't want to hear about mine...

    My main problem is concours judges. Awarding points for this stuff takes away the point that it is all about the car, duh! Yeah, I know that people like Tom make a living (not much of one, but a living) catering to tool kit junkies. But, at the end of the day, who cares?

    My passion was, and is, British motorcycles. I have a 1970 Triumph Bonneville. I don't ride it much any more because, well, nostalgia only gets you so far. But I do love to look at it and remember. I like to remember when I was young and stupid, as opposed to old and stupid.

    All the best, Dale

    ps BTW, when are you going to come on a drive with me?
     
  11. pauls

    pauls Formula Junior

    Apr 25, 2004
    417
    As a concours judge we don't honor points for this stuff.
     
  12. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    42,475
    Texas!
    Okay, but what about took kits?
     
  13. pauls

    pauls Formula Junior

    Apr 25, 2004
    417
    I know where you are going... and it's a good question. Yes, we take points off for "lack of" or "incomplete" tool kit. This is standard throughout the world of concours. So why not include a clock tag into the rules of concours? It's because concours is as much subjective as well as it is objective. I was once told when arguing about the "inconsistancy of concours" to either "play or leave". So I decided to play. I have issues with concours but unfortunately change is no faster here than with other international or social issues.
     
  14. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    34,956
    The Sunshine State
    Full Name:
    Dave
    And, while we're at it, how about complete, vs. incomplete owner's pouches?

    Oh, and if my car is a late 72 (it is), would it have the parts book with the yellow or the blue Dino on the cover, or would it just have whatever was laying around the factory at that moment in time? And can I substitue a Mar Parts book and still be ok?

    This stuff is way out of control.

    If I'm at a concours, I could lose points because I don't have the proper warning triangle, even though there seems to be a difference of opinion as to what might or might not have been original in my car anyway. And, I can get a replacement from the factory authorized guys at Ferrari UK for $30, so is that ok for the concours?

    How about if some guy at the factory put the wrong tool in my tool pouch by mistake? Now I'm out there trying to source a stinking $1 screwdriver that's gonna cost $400.

    Or, if my carpet doesn't have binding around the vent openings? How many 10th's is that? How about if I have an amp for the radio in the glove box? It is a 30 year old amp at least.

    And, suppose my dash has original mouse hair, but the hair is worn off? Do I lose points, even though I can show it's original by the felt that still exists on hidden places? (Kind of like me, most hair worn off, only have it in places you can't see easily now, and certainly don't want to.)

    And why do I need a clock tag? As far as I can tell, the clocks on these cars only work for a week or two anyway. Now, if the tag has an extra double secret instruction for getting the clock to work again.... Now that would be worth something.

    This goes on and on, doesn't it?

    [rant over]

    DM
     
  15. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 4, 2003
    5,556
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Shawn
    dave,

    i think you may have missed the point of the clock tag. for the dino it reads :

    "1. push and turn the knob to set the hands to the right time.
    2. let go the knob and make sure that it returns to its rest position."

    i would argue that the clock tag proves the clock never worked to begin with the way a clock would normally work. why should it be my fault that the concours judge didn't understand that a ferrari clock isn't like a normal clock that tells the time. i ferrari clock just shows the time the last time it was set. who ever said that the clock had to run?

    in my qp i have a button that turns off the passenger airbag (i know it has been recalled) that doesn't do anything. this is proof that ferrari still operates the same way today. with no regard for the functionality of the item as long as it looks nice.

    the clock tag serves as proof that the clock wasn't meant to run to begin with. not that i expect the qp to be a concours judged car, but how do i prove that the button was never supposed to work?
     
  16. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,703
    Santa Fe, NM
    ok, no one has said it, so I'll say it . . .


    ONE MILLION DOLLARS . . .
     
  17. Sfumato

    Sfumato F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2003
    9,714
    Llanfairpwllgwyngyll, Anglesey, Wales
    Full Name:
    Angus Podgorney
    So I was wrong to buy a second car for the hang tags, key code paperwork, and books/tools? Since I only needed that stuff, I crushed the car to preserve the value of the other car ;)
    J/K...but I have had "issues" with judges. A LeMans class winner docked for original-type but not original to car coils, for instance. Check the dump @ the track, dig 40 years down. Air in tires wasn't original either. Air in judges head was, never an open mind to let anything circulate in there. :rolleyes:
     
  18. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    14,952
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    $1000 bucks!! Holy smokes!!! I'm gonna start collecting airbag stickers for the 360's and hang on to them for 40 years!!
     
  19. Sfumato

    Sfumato F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2003
    9,714
    Llanfairpwllgwyngyll, Anglesey, Wales
    Full Name:
    Angus Podgorney
    Nah...radio faceplate sleeves and F1 reverse hangtags are where the money is. Halvesies on a truckload?
     
  20. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    42,475
    Texas!
    I'm in...
     
  21. pauls

    pauls Formula Junior

    Apr 25, 2004
    417
    Like I said play or leave the playing field. I have been judge and judged. You can vent untill you are blue in the face but it is what it is, like it or not. You can make change by writing the powers that be but change is slow. So venting will be a part of concours for a long time to come.
     
  22. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    34,956
    The Sunshine State
    Full Name:
    Dave
    Now that's a refreshingly open minded attitude. I'm thrilled to hear that from someone who judges.

    "Play or leave the playing field," sure makes for a warm welcome to someone who's considering competing for the 1st time.

    In other words, the rules are designed to eliminate anyone without deep pockets to afford the extra $20K or more to get the odds and ends now required to make a 60's era car competitive. That's up to a 30% premium on my car's price to get the doo-dads that mean nothing to the condition, driveability or outward appearance of the car. Oh, and don't forget, there's still some discussion as to what's correct for the car. Do you pack three sets of everything to make sure you have exactly what a particular judge wants?

    On the other hand, I can repaint the car, swap out the entire interior, and get no penalty. I can use the same size, but a different brand of tire. So, what's original again?

    And, right now, some of these items are made of unobtainium, meaning until guys like Nunzio and others finish their speculative runs through the collectible market, we won't be able to compete at all.

    Well, back to the highway for me and my car. I guess I'll just keep flipping over my tag at the concours events.

    DM

    Alex, I'll take "that hang tag for a thousand". In Double Jeopardy.
     
  23. pauls

    pauls Formula Junior

    Apr 25, 2004
    417
    I am not sure why, but you often respond to my comments in a sarcastic way. I am not trying to offend. I just say it as I see it. But I will try harder not to offend. Let me know how I do (and I am not being sarcastic). If you are going to have your car judged I assume you want reality rather than some false expectation. Reality- You may get docked for things that are correct. Reality- Not all judges know your car as well as you do. Reality- Sometimes the glitziest car wins over a more correct car. Reality- Sometimes the over restored cars get top awards. Reality- I have seen entrants pack three variations of the same thing to cover themselves. This is sometimes what happens. I hope to improve it. In the mean time consider what I did. I didn't go with expectations of winning awards. I went to learn. And although I wasn't always judged fairly I learned a lot about what was right and wrong about my car. I sucked up the occasional unfairness and improved my car based on almost always good advice from the judges. All in all concours is made up of excellent judges who I respect. I suggest that you go to learn, rather than try to get another trophy for your shelf. If you do, you will find it a very exciting and fun way to use your special car. Concours is not for everyone. It takes a lot of research and money to get these cars up to the high standards that are required. I took some hard knocks when my car was judged but we are not comparing this to a tsunami or the war in Iraq. So try to keep it light and except the realities and you will (like me when my car was judged) have a great time. And BTW I am open minded. That is how I made it through concours. Based on your criticisms (and I am not trying to offend-really!) you may not enjoy the process of concours. It really takes a laid back but determined attitude to get that silver, gold or platinum. So, concours like life is not always fair. But if you roll with it, given time and patience you can succeed. I write this in the most constructive way I know how without the intension of offending anyone. If I have offended you or anyone else I apologize in advance.
     
  24. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Feb 15, 2005
    2,301
    Hanging with Thor
    I agree with DM and Dr. Who, and many others who are wondering where the FCA and preservation standards are going to (and where they have come from), given the huge amount of confusion over what was and wasn't original, and what running changes were made, especially for cars prior to the 308GTB/S.

    And, I am disturbed at the pure OBNOXIOUSNESS of the "play or leave the playing field" attitude.

    My 1972 246GTS, missing a cheap original $3.00 at MOST screwdriver, but with a replacement that looks the same at 3 feet, sure has to be a LOT more original than any US licensed 512BB or BBi that shows up at judged event. At least my car was officially imported into the United States and built to be licensed in the United States, rather than cobbled together by some "tinkerer," no matter how skillful and exquisite the work.

    Are 512BBs and BBis allowed to be judged? If they are licensed/titled in the U.S., they were either originally heavily modified or they were imported illegally. Under the supposed preservation standard, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an FCA judged event, AND THAT WOULD BE A SHAME. Same thing goes for virtually any Euro market car after 1967. How about a 365GTC? Legal? Not legal? What about a car that originally had TRXs?

    AND THREE MORE THINGS.

    I took a bunch of **** on the FCA tech board several months ago when I asked what the specific judging standards are for my Dino and my father's 330GTC. GUESS WHAT? There aren't any. The general judging sheets are apparently it. The "received wisdom" of judges is built on the collective ad hoc reminiscences (technical definition: "apprehension of a Platonic idea as if it had been known in a previous existence").

    I remember a few years back at Concorso Italiano, when Pininfarina was the "feature," that on the tableau of Pininfarina car designs, Tish's Dino was on featured display. I couldn't believe it. Here was a judge's Dino on display, yet it was missing its windshield wipers. It had just the little wiper motor studs showing.

    Finally, IMHO, everyone with an older car, instead of WORRYING about getting that "correct tack cloth," dealer list, or piece of $%^# pair of pliers, should instead be working on persuading Michelin and Pirelli to make correctly sized and rated tires out of modern materials, design, and construction for our cars (not just for older Ferraris, but older Lambos, Jags, Masers, Aston Martins, etc.).

    For example, Pirelli prides itself on its sponsorship association with Concorso Italiano, but in fact does nothing to support our cars (well, the older ones, anyway), and I, for one, don't think that's right.

    Tires are both a performance AND safety issue, while having the correct key fob or radio hang tag or crummy battery card are about the stupidiest things to be worried about.

    (YET, OF COURSE, I'LL KEEP HUNTING FOR THEM TOO).

    Mark
     
  25. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    34,956
    The Sunshine State
    Full Name:
    Dave
    Pauls.

    How about some help with this concours concept instead of just "get over it".

    I deleted a long winded reply to your post. I'm looking for advice, not short, somewhat angry responses, that's all.

    I posed real questions and got zippo in response.

    Dave
     

Share This Page