News

Well my Scud made it another 1k miles or so before breaking again..

Discussion in '360/430' started by singletrack, Aug 2, 2016.

  1. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,697
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Now getting code P0442 which shows as an evap leak. Research shows:

    Motronic ME 7.1.1 - LH
    P0442
    ANTI-EVAPORATION CONTROL SYSTEM
    No pressure increase measured within the fuel tank. (Major leakage)The error can be validated only while running the anti-evaporation test.
    Tank leakage
    Checkout of possible losses within anti-evaporation circuit. Check of fuel pressure sensor. Check of solenoid valve cable.

    ...also smelled fuel in the garage after the last time I parked it.

    Here is what I found on the system and how it works:

    The vapours coming from the tanks are carried, through the ventilation valves provided for this purpose, to a separator. From the separator, the vapours enter the active carbon filter, which absorbs and retains them. With the engine running and depending upon the operating conditions, the Motronic ECUs control the canister purge solenoid valves ( C 3.08) so that the fuel vapours retained by the carbon filter are drawn in by the intake manifolds through the specific lines. The air from the compartment enters the active carbon filter through an air pump ( C 3.07), controlled by the engine ECU. Before the pump there is a filter that prevents foreign matter from entering the system. The diagnosis pump cyclically pressurises the entire anti-evaporation system, in order to detect any possible
    leaks.

    Guess I'm wondering what basic troubleshooting I can do before putting it on a truck to the closest Ferrari dealer 3 hours away. Check all lines on evap system? Smoke test it? Sounds like the pump pressurized the system and it did not read a rise in pressure - hence a leak and the code.

    The shop had the intake manifold off to fix a leak in the heat exchanger. They also had the valve covers off to replace the valve cover gaskets. For the former I believe all, or many of the evap lines have to be removed/replaced. Seems odd that it would take 1k miles to show up though if it was something they put wrong in the last service.

    Anyway, any advice, let me know - looking through shop manual and this site now.
     
  2. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
    6,820
    Evap leak is a common but minor but also annoying thing.

    Mine got it twice, each separated by about 500 miles. and the process of figuring out where the leak is coming from is a tedious one like you've already described: feed smoke into the system, find the leak, plug it or replace leaking part.

    It only happened in my first 3 months of ownership, that's why I've always emphasized to scud buyers to buy cars that have been driven regularly, this sort of gremlin would've been rung out already after enough strong running miles. When I bought my car it only had 890 miles, after the second leak was snipped, it has never come back.

    I'm at 15,000 happy miles now :)
     
  3. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,697
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Thanks meat. Yah it's weird - I went from 8k miles to 15k without too much trouble. Going from 15 to 17k has had a lot of failures. Hoping it is something obvious and minor. I have a good race shop near me, so might just have them take a shot at it (smoke test) vs lose it for weeks.

    Diagram for those following along at home:

    ANTIEVAPORATION DEVICE - Ricambi America, Inc.
     
  4. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
    6,820
    Yeah, it's kinda like a pressure time bomb...you plug one vulnerable area the pressure builds up enough and it pops open another vulnerable area. I wish there was a way to just detect all the vulnerable spots at once and have it all plugged up at the same time.

    I guess you can always just change out the entire system if it keeps coming back?
     
  5. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    10,772
    South East
    Full Name:
    Jimmie
    Most of the time it comes after refuelling and suggests the cap is not fully tightened as I'm sure you saw when looking at other threads so its not really 'breaking again' - more often than not a reset or even just a few regular drive cycles will see it go away - did you maybe park in direct sun after the fill-up ?
     
  6. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,697
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Well it could be anything in the system sure. The cap is on tight as always. I will double check the gasket and clean it up a bit.

    What is the issue with being parked in direct sun? It may have been IIRC. Thanks.
     
  7. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,697
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Interesting thought. I did just plug some other leaks - valve covers.

    If you are methodical I think it should be straight forward to find, just could be time consuming. Changing whole system is a crap shoot I think because the system is tied into the tanks and so leak could be there as well.

    That is assuming it isn't just a glitch and I delete it and it doesn't come back. But I have a feeling something is up here.
     
  8. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    10,772
    South East
    Full Name:
    Jimmie
    This is just a theory but the evaporation system may get overstretched as a result of heating up a full tank in direct sun leading to the error light
     
  9. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,697
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Hmmmm I think I get your theory but not sure I understand the system well enough to opine.

    I'm going to visually inspect all the connections and hoses which will require some panels to be removed etc. See if there is anything obvious. If not, I will clear and see how long it takes to come back. If it does, smoke test it probably. Don't even have time to work on it right now though unfortunately.
     
  10. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,697
    Pittsburgh, PA
    #10 singletrack, Aug 3, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Definitely found *a* leak. Just not sure if it is *the* leak, or even involved in the code, or the only leak etc. etc.. It's right at the clamp to one of the two purge solenoid valves. It was easy to spot with light because all of the hoses have a light coat of dust. There was a little moisture around this one. The clamp looks correct, so I just crimped it down until it was bottomed, which appears to have added additional tension.

    Also took off the gas cap and treated the rubber gasket before reinstalling.

    I cleared the codes and did 20 miles. The car ran really well with no issue. We shall see if that was it, or if I spring a leak somewhere else now like freshmeat ; )
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  11. rmarchjr

    rmarchjr Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 21, 2012
    569
    North east, USA
    The system is connected by a bunch of low pressure rubber vacuum hoses and those crappy clamp connectors. It is unlikely any of the actual valves or actuators failed. 99% it's just a bad hose somewhere. I would look at the vacuum hose diagram and start pulling each one by one, check or replace and ditch those crimp connectors for SS hose clamps. No need for factory hoses, there are higher quality hoses readily available. It is a very minor annoyance compared to problems Scud owners could but don't have. Personally I'm awed at the overall reliability of my car, and most are track miles.

    You can "carefully" pressurize different areas of the system and listen for leaks. Pressurized anything and flamables are an extreamly dangerous combination. It does require a pro, some nitrogen(lower risk of explosion), a regulator (5psi max), and some understanding of the system(it does vent to the tank and to atmosphere so you will hear nitrogen escape)
     
  12. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,697
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Thanks for the advice. The clamps look pretty high quality to me honestly - they are oetiker stepless clamps. I replaced all the hoses on my 308 with modern stuff from OE suppliers for BMW etc. Is there a specific hose you recommend?

    I had found at least one leak from the aerator previously that looked like the wrong size clamp was used. Replaced that with a more traditional stainless clamp.

    I've also noticed that a lot of the clamp part numbers in the parts diagrams are not correct in reality.

    I'm glad your scud has been reliable. Mine was initially also. This year I've had the rear main seal go, heat exchanger dump coolant in the V leaving me stranded, and also plugged the valve covers which were leaking. Had an internal transmission leak before that and a leaking throwout bearing. Hoping all the work will stabilize it.

    Appreciate the insight on the pressure test. I certainly would not do that personally.

    Gotta keep your hose in check. ; P
     
  13. scuderia09

    scuderia09 Formula Junior

    Sep 6, 2007
    991
    I would replace gas cap may , check valve can be getting stuck open ,
     
  14. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
    6,820
    easy peasy singletrack =)

    As for the gas cap theory triggering the EVAP code, I think that only happens on 360s...
     
  15. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    10,772
    South East
    Full Name:
    Jimmie
    Sadly not....
     
  16. rmarchjr

    rmarchjr Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 21, 2012
    569
    North east, USA
    If you have a Ferrari friend around- trade gas caps (Scud and 430 are the same) for a week and at least eliminate the gas cap as a cause. I know that code will generate a CEL but you wont hurt the car driving it, its just annoying.

    But if you continue to drive your car - you must walk naked through your main street saying "shame shame" for poisoning the air with .000002 mg/cc of hyrocarbons, and kiss a polar bear :)
     
  17. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Jul 19, 2008
    31,842
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Just about all modern cars get a CEL from a loose gas cap. Plagues my wife's Mercedes.
     
  18. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
    6,820
    I only said what I did because there was a time when I drove the scud without a gas cap, for a good 4 days...the shop forgot to install the new titanium cap I got for it and I had only realized it was missing when I had to gas up...

    No CEL at all.
     
  19. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,697
    Pittsburgh, PA
    No cel and it passed evap test per obd. No pending codes in either ecu. Been troubleshooting another car so haven't been able to drive it more.

    How much play is normal on the inside of the cap between the plastic and metal pieces? Not much or a fair amount? I would say mine has a fair amount.

    Thx all.
     
  20. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,697
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Probably about to jinx myself, but no recurrence thus far.
     
  21. djempire

    djempire Formula Junior

    Apr 30, 2012
    613
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Serf
    I love happy endings. \0/
     
  22. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,697
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Got the code again - p0442. Checked the previous fixed line/clamp in the driver side rear fender and it appears to be holding. However, the gas cap appears to have a massive amount of play, jiggly, rattle in it between the metal piece and all the plastic/rubber pieces. Actually I think it's a rattle I've been hearing and has been annoying me at speed. I've ordered a new one from ricambi. Will see if that solves it this time. Won't be able to install it and test for a couple of weeks due to travel. Hopefully that's all it is.
     
  23. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Oct 29, 2010
    12,445
    Wyoming
    Miss your contributions here...post more often!
     
  24. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,697
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Thanks - appreciate that! No time with racing and family. Another year or so and will hopefully become more active.
     
    kes7u and arizonaitalian like this.

Share This Page