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Well, I found my oil leak ......

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by james.colangelo, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    212
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    If any of you are into “ruin porn” you will like this post. I have been chasing down an oil leak that rather suddenly sprung, and today I finally found it.

    I’m not sure it could be worse news, but, perhaps someone has a more terrible story they can share to make me feel better. As you can see in these pictures, I hope, what you see through a scope camera is the bell housing a viewed from the passenger side, and where the head meets the block - a bunch of goo.. which is a grey silicone of some kind.

    I traced the oil coming out of the silicone, and so I scraped it off. I took more pictures and video while the car was running, saw the oil weeping (as was I at the same exact time!) out of the crack where a gasket would normally hold oil in ..

    So, here we are.. oil coming out of my head gasket. No idea where to go from here. This repair is beyond my scope of expertise.

    I am especially angry at the seller of this car. I was told many things about it that simply are not true. I can get past a lot of things.. electrical gremlins, garbage tires, a rotten exhaust .. but this, a clearly bogged caulk fix on a serious problem to hide it from a buyer? Not ok. Shame on me for not getting a PPI I suppose.


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  2. Jasonberkeley

    Jasonberkeley Formula 3
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    Apr 23, 2017
    1,017
    New York, NY
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    Jason Berkeley
    Ugh. That is unfortunate to say the least. I would find a good local Ferrari mechanic at this point and let them do a proper inspection of the entire car and see what else is lurking. Then tackle each problem one at a time, doing whatever you can handle on your own, and letting the mechanic do the rest as money allows.
     
  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    18,639
    Texas
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    Steve Magnusson
    Had to replace a head gasket on my TR for the same reason (well, I didn't -- Moorespeed did the work replacing them both ;)). One of the downsides of the overhead camshaft engine design is having high pressure oil pass thru the head gasket joint -- this isn't the case with the cam-in-block-with-pushrods engine design.
     
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  4. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    2,957
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day James,

    This is really sad news. As stated by Jason, you should get a reputable Mechanic to check on the car and provide you with a status report and a plan for sorting this out. Did you buy the car from a dealer? If so, perhaps you can reach out to them to see if they would "contribute" some funds to the repair cost. It is pretty obvious that someone went to some efforts to hide the issue. That being said the person(s) who did this kludge may or may not have been who you bought it from.

    As for sad stories... we have all been there at some point. When I bought my BB it was significantly misrepresented, and like you, I did not get a PPI because the seller was known in the community and was highly regarded. These days one must get an independent PPI no matter what.

    Please keep us posted on how this turns out.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  5. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    296
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    The good news is that the gasket will be easier than mine to remove... As others have suggested, you should have a complete review of the car. If the engine is sound, the head can be removed while the motor is in the hood. This could be a somewhat reasonable repair. By contrast if the motor is so-so you may have to perform a few "while you are here" repair and that's when you enter unknown territory.

    The worst case scenario for your mechanic, would be to initiate the simple repair job and rapidly come to the conclusion that the engine is in need of a complete rebuild.
     
  6. rubenpadron

    rubenpadron Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 22, 2013
    940
    SF Bay Area, CA
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    Ruben
    Sorry to hear James! Looks like you’ve got some sound advice above. Let us know how it turns out, it is a beautiful car after all!

    Best of luck!

    Ruben
     
  7. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 23, 2007
    4,668
    North Pole AK
    Who's the scum bag that sold it to you?
     
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  8. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    212
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    Thanks everyone for the kind words and support. My engine and gearbox were rebuilt several years ago, and the car does run very strong - I don’t think I’ll have any surprises but who knows. It could be the heads needs to be re-torqued but I can’t imagine it would be that simple. It never is.

    I purchased the car from Daniel Rapley of Rapley Motor Cars. He seemed to have a good rep as well so I took his word on a lot of things. My car was at Gullwing before him, and I suspect it was either them or him that did the repair. I DID reach out to him about this however I received no response.

    He was keen to help me sort out my starting issue, but I also had a title problem (I couldn’t register a “jumped” title in Michigan) that he helped with and I think that exhausted his goodwill unfortunately. This however does border on fraud and I’m considering other measures.
     
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  9. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
    Owner Consultant

    Aug 10, 2002
    17,225
    socal
    Do you know how many miles on the motor? If it were mine I would do a compression test and leak down and vac test to get an idea of how the car is running. That might give me an idea of how much while you were in there to do. If DIY labor is free so you can do the minimum but if you need new valve seals and the head has to come off for the headgasket well that's a definate while you were in there. Once the heads are off you check for flatness of the head and block if there is not immediate obvious damage. I would compression test the block with a dummy head. If the bottom is good and flat deck check the heads real close. Should they be refreshed? higher miles yes. leakdown numbers??? maybe? If you are lucky it is just a headgasket. I wonder if the motor was ever overheated?
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,461
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    If it is anything like your average Ferrari 12 the heads have never been retorqued which was required at every valve adjustment until the 512TR was built. . On yours that was 1000-1500 miles after the rebuild and every 12,500 after. Torque it first.
     
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  11. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jun 10, 2007
    5,320
    Lake Villa IL
    Full Name:
    James Moran
    Ball/stud rocker design is through-pushrod oiling.

    Any pushrod engine with a factory shaft type rocker system has pressurized oiling through head gasket.
     
  12. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    212
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    Thanks again all - I’m guessing these heads have no been retorqued recently. That’s a freebie. I’ll do a compression test before and after as well.
     
  13. 400iGuy

    400iGuy Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Aug 26, 2004
    979
    Central Florida
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    Al
    I had exactly this problem with my 1984 400iA a few years ago. Passenger side only. There’s a pressurized passageway from the block to the head in the center near the back of the block. I’d driven many miles before the problem appeared as oil covering the back of the car after a long drive. The fix was to replace the head gasket (by Tim Stanford, Ft Lauderdale). The rest of the gasket was sealing fine, just pumping oil out the center rear of the head!

    Al
     
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  14. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    212
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    Yep seems to be my exact issue..

    The seller did reach out to me via email today. Took a few days. So, maybe he will do the right thing. We’ll see. I’m not sure what the right thing is .. there were so many undisclosed issues that I’m addressing now, I don’t know where to begin with him.
     
  15. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    18,639
    Texas
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    Steve Magnusson
    Of course, you're right. I should've written: "...with the typical, low-cost cam-in-block-with-pushrods engine design" ;)
     
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  16. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    212
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    Hi All,

    Just a quick update, I spoke to the seller of the Ferrari today and he's going to make this right. I was hoping this would be the case. I have yet to determine what "making it right" means EXACTLY, however I am getting an estimate from my mechanic for the head gasket replacement and subsequent head work (checking for cracks, leaks, warpage etc..) on both sides and will be sending it off to him. I imagine it will be upwards of $2000-$5000 depending.. I'll keep everyone posted, and of course will post pictures of all the fun disassembly when it happens!

    Jim
     
  17. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    212
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    Hi All,

    Yet another update today - mechanic came back with this being an engine out service, confirmed by a Ferrari dealership (I'm using my mechanic who I know and trust can work on this and other exotics). So we are looking at an $8,000 or so repair bill. I'll be sending that bill to the seller and we'll see what he says. I have a feeling his wanting to make this right will evaporate pretty quickly.

    This is a nightmare honestly. It's such a good car, but this is so disappointing. I think I may sell after this repair, I really don't want to deal with any of this crap.
     
  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,461
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Your frustration is understandable. Its a shame you didn't know beforehand. I am going through same on a car right now that was purchased with no prior inspection.

    One of the truest things I have ever heard said facetiously by someone in this industry as a general warning "Gee my car is perfect, I think I'll sell it".
     
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  19. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    212
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    Yeah that is true, but I have also always sold cars with all known issues to me told to the buyer. This issue was CLEARLY covered up in a bungled fashion and no question was known by the seller. I am still quite angry about the whole thing, and at this cost may rise to a matter of legal action. I will of course wait until I hear back from him regarding the bill I'm sending over, to be fair. So far, he has been quite upstanding about the whole thing but everyone has their limits and their limits usually involve money.
     
  20. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2006
    3,457
    Seattle, WA
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    Brian White
    Nah, don't sell. Fix it, deal with the seller, then keep it and drive it. They are great drivers. Once fixed, you're good.
     
  21. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    212
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    I guess we'll see - feeling a bit dejected right now I'm sure that will change with time. F*cking Italian cars.. haha
     
  22. rubenpadron

    rubenpadron Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 22, 2013
    940
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Full Name:
    Ruben
    James, I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this... but it’s not the car’s fault. You have a VERY rare and beautiful car there that you’re on your way to sorting out, regardless of who pays for it (I really hope the seller makes you whole one it!).

    Either way, you’re going to end up with a beautiful and rare car that’s all sorted by a mechanic you know and trust - don’t give up on it so quickly. Enjoy it (regardless of the financial outcome) - these are really wonderful cars and I hope you can experience first hand the wonderful experience that it is to own a 400/412 5 speed! I won’t give up my 412 5 speed for anything!

    Cheers,

    Ruben
     
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  23. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    212
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    Thanks Ruben I do appreciate the kind words. Who knew this site was also therapy? I’ll keep everyone posted. She’s heading to the mechanic this morning actually. I’ll try to get progress pictures as they come, I suppose this will be a good opportunity to clean up the engine bay and stuff.
     
    rubenpadron likes this.
  24. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 23, 2007
    4,668
    North Pole AK
    Any updates? Hope you get it running with out too much expense.
     
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  25. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    212
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    Well, yes and no. Before the holidays I brought it into the shop for a proper estimate which I then shared with the seller, and as he promised, he’s paying for the repair entirely. Frankly I’m shocked at what a stand-up move that is, and over the moon with happiness. What started as absolute disaster is turning into opportunity in terms of having the engine out, I can pay for other things that need to be done at the same time while still having this repair done correctly.

    Major kudos to the seller, Daniel Rapley of Rapley Classic Cars. So with that, this thread will probably close but I need to make a new one soon titled “What do I do while my engine is out?” :)
     

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