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Water pump weep hole

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by plip, Sep 25, 2019.

  1. plip

    plip Karting

    Aug 25, 2003
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    Gianni Olivieri
    Hi

    during pressure testing the block, noticed couple of drop of oil coming from the water pump hole. The water pump (and the system) is not leaking coolant and the block lost 2 PSI of pressure over 24 hrs. Tested at 19 PSI. The oil leak was no even enough to drop on the floor. No leak after pressure testing ended.

    Now if my understanding is correct, the hole is there to drain the space between the shaft oil seal and the water seal. If the block has no oil in it, where is the leaking oil coming from ?
    Is the oil leaking the amount trapped between the bearing the oil seal ?
    Would understand an oil leak when the engine is running probably due to the seal lip getting old, but whit the engine in the cradle ?

    Tks for any explanation. Hate things which cannot understand......
     
  2. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,737
    If the shop temperatures were stable over the 24 hrs, then the 2 psi is likely a leak worth fixing. First though... ensure that your test rig is 100% tight.

    Correct understanding.

    Pressure in the coolant system should never put pressure on your oil seal as long as the weep hole remains open and unplugged. The oil between the oil seal and bearing should never come out the weep hole unless the oil seal is bad. A leaking WP seal WITH a plugged weep hole would force coolant and the oil behind the oil seal deeper into your engine’s oil system.

    Please clarify.... are you testing the old water pump seal or a newly installed WP and oil seal?
     
  3. plip

    plip Karting

    Aug 25, 2003
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    Gianni Olivieri
    Tks Vincenzo. Testing the old water pump.
    Precisely what was thinking. The hole is open no question. There is no coolant leak, nor there was any water in oil when it was discharged or on the oil dipstick.
     
  4. plip

    plip Karting

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    So really.....do not wake the sleeping dogs up or....better safe than sorry ?
     
  5. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,737
    Sounds like oil was getting past the oil seal and was then pushed out by coolant during your test. Just a guess.

    Consider a 48hr test to see if you get more oil... or oil and then water.

    Likely a good time to replace your seals
     
  6. plip

    plip Karting

    Aug 25, 2003
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    Gianni Olivieri
    Hi Vincenzo, sure will give it a try and report further.

    On a separate note do you happen to know which hose goes where on the heating system ? Basically the hose which goes to the heating valve does it comes from the engine or from the aluminum pipe which connect the lower part of the rads ? Have duly marked mine b4 removal but does not make much sense to me the way they were connected.
     
  7. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,737
  8. plip

    plip Karting

    Aug 25, 2003
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    Tks...but which is going where ? One goes to the heater valve and the other to the heater itself.
    According to the WSM the one coming out of the engine (small pipe attached to the belt cover) number 11 in the pic is the delivery water going to the heating system and the number 10 is the return line. Now the delivery water attaches to the heater valve or to the heater core ?
     
  9. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,737
    I am not sure of the heater box connections... have not been in there. This post should help:

     

    Attached Files:

  10. plip

    plip Karting

    Aug 25, 2003
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    Tks but nope it does not. The pic is the heater valve. The heater valve has an inlet and an outlet which goes to the heater core. The inlet had a reduction pipe which connects to one of the two hose coming from the engine compartment. In my car the heater valve was connected to the return line (number 10 in the pic) which seems a bit odd to me unless the valve just stop the warm water going back to the system.
     
  11. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,737
    Maybe start a new thread on ‘just’ heater hose replacement. Hopefully it will get more attention from somebody that has first hand knowledge on the heater box connection.
     
  12. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
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    Aug 29, 2008
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    The heater valve is default open, grounding when sensed closes valve.
     
  13. plip

    plip Karting

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    Yeep. Tks Vincenzo always appreciate yr help. Will be back on the pressure testing result.
     
  14. plip

    plip Karting

    Aug 25, 2003
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    Tks David. My understanding was (but might be wrong) that the valve is open when the ignition if off and is held closed when ignition is on until either button of the heating system (or AC) is pressed. Still cannot figure out if the valve connects to the water return or delivery line coming from the engine compartment.
     
  15. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    romano schwabel
    I think ( not sure, only thinking ) that the delivery hose goes to the valve. makes sense in my eyes ;)
     
  16. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    That is correct -- we had a private conversation about this, but I'll post if here too:

    The hot water heater valve does stop the return of the warm water back to the engine, but this also stops delivery of any warm water into the system. The flow path is:
    1. Hot water comes from the fitting on tube at the top of the engine where the hot, high pressure coolant exits the 1-6 cylinder head,
    2. the hot water enters the heater radiator in the AC unit,
    3, the hot water exits the heater radiator and goes to the upper/middle port on the hot water valve,
    4. the hot water exits the bottom fitting on the hot water valve and returns to the fitting on the coolant tube between the radiators.

    If you look at Fig 18 on page H28 in the TR WSM of the hot water valve, it shows why it's important to have the higher pressure (supply) hose connected to the upper/middle port and the low pressure return line connected to the bottom port. This way, the high pressure side helps hold the hot water valve closed when the valve is energized to be closed. If the hoses are reversed, then the high pressure side "blows" the hot water valve open as the solenoid in the hot water valve is not strong enough to hold it closed when the valve is energized to be closed, and the heat will always be "on".
     
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  17. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    #17 turbo-joe, Sep 27, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019
    never had a look at those heating hoses because until now no problems. but as you explain steve how the heating valve is working it is clear that this valve has to be in the return line. thanks for this info. :)

    but nevertheless I wonder:
    it is the same closed system, so the pressure should be equal all over in the cooling and heating system. only thing is the very little more pressure the waterpump is pumping the water, but this seems for me too low to meassure the difference
     
  18. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,737
    Plip,
    If you are able.... it would be great if you added some general photos of your efforts. I am very curious how much of the interior needs to come out for access and how difficult it is to get at the hoses under the dash. Also any input on your process for pulling the new hoses would great as well.

    Thanks!
     
  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    There is a good engineering reason for putting the valve in the return line from the heat exchanger to the engine rather than in the supply line going from the engine to the heat exchanger: The temperature of the coolant in the return line is always lower than the temperature of the coolant in the supply line = reduces the average temperature that the valve (and its internal components) is exposed to = extends valve life.
     
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  20. plip

    plip Karting

    Aug 25, 2003
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    #20 plip, Sep 30, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
    Vincenzo sure here we go :

    From engine compartment :

    Need to cut off the plastic clamps holding the hoses together (2 pieces) and loose the 10 mm nut holding a metal clamp high up in between the tanks (second pic). WARNING. as you can see the small vacuum pipe is NOT clamped is just kept in place by the electrical wire which are, instead, clamped. You will note that same vacuum hose is actually going through a separate place in the tunnel for the same reason. Remember when you clamp back at the end.
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    From the passenger side :

    Need to remove the RH tunnel cover and the passenger foot well. Suggest to remove the seat as well since will have to laid down on your back to get access to hose and without seat is much better, although far away from being comfortable...
    Under the foot well you get the electrical connections. Mine is quite crowded since have the alarm installed there.

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    Disconnect the 4 connectors and move the wiring loom aside as far as you can. Removed the 2 x 10 mm nut which hold the connector bracket in place and removed the connectors from the bracket. Removed the bracket and put aside. Also here put the wiring loom aside as much as you can. Now you can see the valve on your right hand side hold in place by 2 x 10 mm nuts. Mark the hoses b4 removing although we now know which hose is going where (big Thank to Steve Magnusson). There are 2 hoses connected to the valve.The Hose interesting us is connected at the bottom of the valve. Do not remove the upper hose going from the valve to the heater. No need. You will see there is a bend hose from the lower part of the valve which connect to the hose coming from the engine via a reduction piece. Just undo the clamp at the hoses coming from the engine. WARNING water will come out. Put Towels or a small recipient under it. Now laid down and look for the clamp holding the other hose to the heater. Not easy to undo. Once the clamp was loose had to cut the hoses to get it out.

    Both hose will come out of the tunnel behind the support where the foot well sits (where the relays with the blue connector attaches in the pic above). There is a piece of adhesive foam where the hoses exit the tunnel which prevent rubbing of the hose with the metal. Remove and put aside.

    You have to find a way to connect the old with the new hose. Have done that from the passenger side since much easier to pull from engine compartment. Have turned on the lathe a piece of aluminum abt 50 mm long with two grooves which force fit inside both hoses. Have then secure the hoses on each side with wire twisted with pliers where the grooves are. It resulted in the wire being flush with the outside of the hose. Cover with cloth tape.
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    You will note the difference in diameter on the piece above. The original hose as a ID of 16 mm and the new one 15 mm.

    Now use plenty of silicone spray starting where the hoses exit the tunnel. Silicon will run along the hoses inside the tunnel. Keep on spraying.... also spray on the portion of the old hose outside the tunnel.

    Go back in the engine compartment and start pulling. Go back and forth few times until the connection is abt to enter the tunnel. Now on with silicone spray on the connection and on the new hose. 20/30 cm at the time. Need to go back and forth few times but if properly lube with silicon spray it's no big deal.

    Cut the hoses at the required length and reconnect. You will find the connection at the heater a bit painful. Suggest to hold the pipe at the heather with pliers whilst you try to push the hose in. It's copper and you do no want to break it...had to heat up with torch the last 5 cm of the hose to get it in.

    Incidentally, below is the stuff which was inside the hose at the engine side. It was much, much cleaner at the other end.
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    Hope the above helps.

    Best,
    Gianni
     
  21. Veedub00

    Veedub00 F1 Rookie
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    Jun 30, 2006
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    my heater hoses were both dry rotted on the insides. The outside layer looked great though.
     
  22. plip

    plip Karting

    Aug 25, 2003
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    Mine too.
     
  23. Veedub00

    Veedub00 F1 Rookie
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    I took off my center bottom plate though because I couldn't use the pulling method you used. Mine detached! I used a ton of silicone spray to feed the hoses through. What a pain in the butt it was.
     
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  24. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    2,737
    Great stuff plip! Thanks for the pics.

    Shocking to see all the metal in the coolant system. Perhaps a reverse flush of the heater core would be a good idea during an engine out.

    Just a thought... perhaps pulling a vacuum on the hoses before pulling them through might be helpful. Even a mm of diameter reduction would likely make a big difference.
     
  25. plip

    plip Karting

    Aug 25, 2003
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    Gianni Olivieri
    Most welcome. Actually what you see are not metal pieces but rubber pieces coming from the inside of the heater hoses which deteriorated at the engine side. Do speculate due to engine heat there since at the heater side the hoses inside looked pretty good. Did had both rads at the radiator shop cleaned inside and pressure tested just to be on the safe side. Agree that shrinking the outer diam of the hoses by vacuum could help, although as said, with silicon spray it went preatty easy.

    Currently the block is under pressure test as suggested . Reverting soon with results.
     
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