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[video] bad CCR 458 crash Road America

Discussion in 'Challenge Club Racing Championship' started by rob lay, Jun 30, 2015.

  1. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    the video shows turning of the wheel.

    to answer your question, you can turn the car throttle, braking, or even just lifting. I don't think the case here as Steve was 100% throttle.
     
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  3. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    1 day ban, personal attack.
     
  4. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm not a data guy. Is there a throttle trace with the steering? Video fools people all the time. Data seems infallible. By the video everyone says the lead car move is abrupt and significant. A steering data trace would show that. It is unlikely to get such a dramatic shift in position on a straight going 150 even if abrupt lift or brake and even less adding abrupt throttle. Further the throttle trace would show if he was 100% as you state. And if he was 100% how can anyone reconcile the contradiction of what the data shows and video portrays?
     
  5. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Data infallibale? Someone with knowledge will have to comment on this situation. Is steering trace GPS only? Is it pulling from the cars data? How much input required to register? There can always be manipulation of data. Data wrongly interpreted, just like video? Infallible?
     
  6. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    That is a question I posted about earlier and people like ProCoach have been silent. Maybe because they are working on the appeal right now? Yes data sure seems infallible. Data is all the rage. We have Coaches leaving the right seat to make drivers faster with data and video. Almost no pro races without data. Data is where 10ths seem to be earned. To me that means it is accurate. I think we will have to wait for the professionals.
     
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  8. JWeiss

    JWeiss Formula 3
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    No way that trace came off GPS data. It's gotta be steering angle collected from the car itself.
     
  9. WCCoffey

    WCCoffey Karting
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    #132 WCCoffey, Aug 14, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015

    The steering angle data is provided by the Steering Angle Sensor in the car, it is not "calculated" information. The Steering angle measures in increments of 1 degree, and the sensor is located inside the steering column.

    This steering angle sensor and data is part of the stability management of the car as well as the factory Magneti Marelli data analysis system.

    All of the data captured by the AiM system is provided through the CAN-BUS in the car EXCEPT G Forces, and GPS Data. It matters not what data capturing system you use in the car as it all captures the same data that is provided BY the car. The factory Marelli system cannot display different parameters than the AiM system as they are derived from the same sensor and system.

    With Modern Can-Bus based cars the need for a data acquisition system with its own sensors is obsolete.

    There are 2 reasons for using an AiM system over the factory Marelli. First, The Marelli requires the use of a Beacon. If the batteries go dead in the beacon, or if it falls over, is tampered with, lost or stolen, you are **** out of luck and you get no data. The AiM is GPS based to determine start/stop points. Second, the data is easier to reveiw and plot as the AiM Analysis Software is much easier to manage. Driver coaches also like to use the same systems through out the different cars they coach so that the display is something they are familiar with and able to use easily.

    For Example: Our driver coach doesn't just coach Ferrari's. He does TA2, TA, World Challenge, Cup Cars, etc, etc, etc... and the Marelli system and Analysis software is specific to the Ferrari and is not in any other car. So to enable him to coach to the best of abilities we run the AiM system that he is familiar with.
     
  10. jakermc

    jakermc Formula 3
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    +430
     
  11. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3

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    #134 johnhoughtaling, Aug 18, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
    The fact that we have not commented on the data is not because no one is interested. We have not commented because it is currently under review by our experts. An appeal has been logged by Steven Hill who sent his Data to CCR. CCR is reconvening our panel with a review of data and will review the decision of fault and penalty. Jim Booth has also asked the board, along with the appeal to review the penalty and suspension. CCR will reserve comment until a full review of all submissions by the appellant and appellee by our experts and board.

    We ask that everyone respect our good faith efforts in the meantime. When we have a decision we will make it public along with our analysis.
     
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  13. Teachdocs

    Teachdocs Formula Junior

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    John,

    Thank you for all the effort, work, and heart and soul you put into CCR. I know there is a process, and it takes time. Thanks for being thorough.

    I was a bit confused with the initial findings, as I thought that the data had already been reviewed. Your comment today reveals that the data is now being looked at by the expert panel and was not considered in the initial findings. That's a good thing to review everything that is available.

    I have an AIM system as well, and the live view shows that the steering wheel input is in fact, quite sensitive. Hope the data can shed some light on the sequence of events in addition to the video.

    Most of all, I wish Jim a full recovery and pray that his injuries are not too serious and will completely resolve. Also my thoughts are with Steven as this experience must be difficult for him as well. My casual experience with both of these guys is that they are genuine, honest, and would never do anything intentional to harm a fellow racer on the track. They are more competitive than me, but that doesn't mean we can't share the track in this series.

    The thing that all of us need to keep in mind, is that there are no winners and losers in an incident like this. Everyone seems to lose something in a domino effect. Every driver and team missed out on a full race that day. It affected the PWC schedule of events and changed their schedules. It affected the track and safety workers. Coupled with the incident in Qualifying the previous day, we had less track time at RA than any other event I have participated in with CCR but the costs of getting there and racing were the same. One car was destroyed and another car seriously damaged. The fence sustained heavy damage. Jim sustained physical injuries and I'm sure Jim and Steven sustained at least some mental anguish as well. Hell, it shook me up and I wasn't directly involved. Whoever is determined to be at fault, or share fault, will have a negative effect on them for a long period of time. But all of these things are trivial compared to the human experience, and that is why we should be praying for Jim to recover completely and try to see how we can make things safer for all of us in the future.

    Looking forward to continuing with CCR and having a safe, fun, and exciting way to enjoy these fantastic cars with friends who share the same passion.

    PS. Thanks for fixing that fence.
     
  14. txfsport

    txfsport Rookie

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    #136 txfsport, Aug 18, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2015
    Here is another camera angle that I cannot believe no one is discussing. It looks pretty cut and dry to me

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHfALNIVULY[/ame]
     
  15. jakermc

    jakermc Formula 3
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    Here is why data is so important:

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHfALNIVULY&sns=em[/ame]

    From this view it looks like Booth drops two wheels in the dirt and then veers into Steve.different angles can make the same event look completely different. Data always tells the truth.
     
  16. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3

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    This is the exact video from Marios car reviewed frame by frame in HD by the panel and discussed in the original report.
     
  17. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    Good points in here. I too was confused how 100% of blame could be assigned in this incident to one driver. It seems to me that both played a roll. The lead car could (should) have left more room and the overtaking car tried to make a pass at a location that I would not have tried in a 13/13 event. There appeared to be a decision to pass regardless of the space that was there and once committed never lifted or braked. Steering input and throttle/brake data can tell a lot here. Perhaps this decision to pass through 4 was in part because passing was discouraged into 5 as stated earlier? Getitdoneitus? Into 5 would have been a better location to complete the pass in my opinion.
     
  18. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

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    A problem I have with a 100% assessment of blame is that this assessment took weeks, with multiple video camera angles from multiple cars. How can you possibly assign 100% blame on drivers making a decision in seconds and without the benefit of all these different points of view ?
     
  19. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I agree with you 100%. These are split second decisions made under stress by amateurs racing at 160mph with incomplete data. That is why we call these racing incidents baring clear cut violations of racer behavior.
     
  20. dmundy

    dmundy Formula 3
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    Well said.
     
  21. jakermc

    jakermc Formula 3
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    And with 100% blame assessed, I also think that the concept that the passing driver has responsibility for making a safe pass seems to have been forgotten. Squeezing on the inside at the apex of T4 as the track narrows should carry with it the acceptance of some level of risk. Not sure what the level is, but it is >0.
     
  22. vlamgat

    vlamgat Formula Junior

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    I would like to use the opportunity afforded by the hiatus ahead of COTA to sincerely apologize to John on this (public) forum (as I have already done privately) for my emotional outburst on August 10 . I was upset by the Finding and my choice of words was unfortunate and out of context for this series. It was not my intent to malign or damage.
    I have heard and seen how divisive this incident has become which is of no value to any of us and it’s particularly inappropriate for you without whom, there would be no series. We have not encountered something like this before, but I know it’s very difficult to develop a process to handle it when it happens and maintain the transparency that was promised.
    So I am sorry that this has been distressing for many and in particular Yulia and John and hope we can put this behind us.
    Colin
     
  23. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3

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    Thank you for your words Colin. I appreciate what you wrote.

    We are trying very hard to do the right thing which is what everyone deserves.

    Racing a Ferraris takes a lot of passion, commitment, and investment on many levels on behalf of everyone involved. Yulia and I are investing in bringing on additional talent to move the series forward in 2016.
     
  24. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Was there a post data review verdict? Appeal stands or initial sanctions stand?
     
  25. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Once again I applaud your thoroughness, fairness, and passion.

    Racing is always interesting.

    This weekend during practice we were rolling along nicely when a car up ahead crashed and the driver who was trying to get his Ring license riding with an instructor both got out without leaving the car in gear or setting the parking brake and the car rolled backwards into us. The driver had earlier this year won Le Mans in an LMP1! If you watch to the end you'll see the incident. We repaired overnight and raced successfully the next day.

    Stay safe and keep your passion burning.

    Best!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEOgmAhNZbk&sns=tw
     
  26. gatorgreg

    gatorgreg Formula 3
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    That is unbelievable. That's racing.
     
  27. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

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    Read the whole thread. Watched videos multiple times. Can't see how it's possible to apportion 100% blame on #33. In-car video of #33 clearly shows he did not move his steering input. According to his appeal document, he also has logger data to prove he did not turn his steering wheel into #13.

    Not an expert on video optical illusion, but if #33 is going in a straight line into the apex of a left bend, using the left track limit white line or #13 moving along the white line as reference can possibly cause one to think #33 is moving left instead of #13 moving right.

    What about the Venturi suction effect as the gap width between #33 and #13 is drastically reduced when #13 got up close to #33? If that is a factor then can easily suck the two cars towards each other by a foot or two

    Regardless of Venturi effect, side gust of wind, or #33 slightly squeezing, #13 was way too optimistic to stick his nose in as #33 approached in a straight trajectory towards "apex" of the very high speed bend.

    Don't know how it is in the US, but normal FIA stewards' interpretation is passing car must have at least his front wheel past the rear wheel of the car in front to attempt a move, which does not appear to be the case here.

    CCR appears to be trying its best to be open and impartial. Not surprised people disagree about any CCR decision might make. At end of the day, amateur racing is supposed to be fun and everyone should be glad #13 driver survived the crash!

    Some times conceding a position or wait till next corner to pass is the wiser and safer choice.
     
  28. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    So what was the final result of the appeal protest?
     

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