[video] bad CCR 458 crash Road America

Rob

I think that's a reasoned perspective. In analyzing this frame by frame in HD, very interesting conclusions can be made. we will wait for a full report on what each driver did and what they saw before giving comclusions on drivers actions. But I'll say this about the flip:

It's clear that Jim's drivers side rear tire falls off the pavement a tenth of a second before impact. The front passenger side lifts due to the opposite rear tire falling down. At this very moment the lifted corner of the 458 impacts Hills car lifting it more. These combined mechanical forces allowed air under the car, and at that speed, off it went. If you've seen protypes blow a rear tire a speed, you see similar results

 

We've not considered it to be Rob Lays fault. We pledged to consider everything, so we will look into it!

 

John
I appreciate your commitment on keeping CCR a gentleman series. CCR's safety record has been impeccable and a lot of fun.
Greg

 

vid got picked up by RACER mag...

Videos - CCR Ferrari Challenge crash at Road America

 

Rob-is Jason's opinion that a single defensive blocking move was done by the 430?

 

Black #33 does glance in the mirror just before the contact (which you can see in the mirror), but the steering wheel does not turn to the left prior to the bump.

 

Does anyone besides me think the 458 Challenge has too little front downforce?

 

The cars were not racing for class position, although perhaps 458 #33 felt compelled to try to overtake with superior power due to the blue car that might have caught him had he just let Steve go. Also, the preceding laps might have also been a source of some frustration to Steve. Was Steve first in class at this point? I personally try to be extra conservative when racing cars not in my class. I can't lay 100% blame on either driver and think this could be avoidable. I'd also want to know more about track position in class of each car, as that is an important consideration in assessing judgment calls by each driver.

 

IMO Jason Saini needs to STFU. The video doesn't necessarily support his views. A lot is going on in that stretch of track; I've driven it many times. While a badass like Jason is thinking deep thoughts about racecraft, lesser mortals may be thinking about/distracted by how fast a 430/458 feels going downhill, how a little kink feels more like a turn at speed (main straight turn at VIR, for example) and so a slower car may not particularly want to change his line, how close those walls are, how you have to manage the braking properly to make the very tight turn 5 and climb the hill to 6, etc.

The real problem is that this is a gentleman's series and this type of incident should never have happened - hopelessly unnecessary. Yes racing is a passionate undertaking, but series like this need to be about perspective. Make examples of both of them and give the entire field a thorough dressing-down at the next couple driver meetings. That an incident like this happened at all is as important as how this incident occurred. Situational awareness on a macro and micro scale.

John H can handle this, he cares about this series and I'm sure hates this. I'm sorry for everyone involved.

And I wonder, with Jim, about the 458 flipping. Strange.

 

Yes. One defensive move is allowed but not a wise move in this situation. The leading car clearly pulled off line deliberately and caused this incident. The guy in the black car should be banned from the series.

 

Guess you guys didn't hear about the 2 430's destroyed on the first turn on the first hot lap of qualifying which also red-flagged that session. The drivers in this series treat this much differently than a true gentleman's series.

 

I could not read jasons comments. Why do you think this? The little I saw of this incident, Out of class cars should not act this way imo. That is my 1st thought. But overtaking car has responsibility to do it safely. Lead car has right to make 1 blocking move regardless and drive his race. Lead car has responsibility to leave racing room when the following driver presents himself up to the door of the leader. Just because the leader knows the other car is coming does not give following driver rights. It is a racing incident either could have avoided.

 

The only thing that makes me side with you is the coming down at speed on the straights. I see your point about that but 2 things come to mind. 1st video angles can really fool us into thinking things happened that did not because we see it with our own eyes. In reality guilt by video is instant but multiple angles will tell a better story. As in politics there is the left and the right with truth somewhere in the middle. Second, as the following car I am always taking that chance passing on straights even if out of class. There is a fine line on closing speeds difficult for me anyway to assess in video. If my close on slower car is fast I am prepared for need to get on brakes or make a jog until I have rapidly presented myself I can't assume the leader has seen me. He is infront and it is his track. If fighting for a pass on the straight the differential speed might only be a few mph so the block is legal and can be no more abrupt as I could handle at 150mph and keep my car on the road either. Plus if we are fighting for it he knows Im there.
That said what you say makes perfect sense and makes me think. But have you ever heard a rule that says once you pick a lane on the straight you have to stay there? I think the black car move is legal maybe not ethical or smart. I guess the question is what is the definition of one driver pinching another vs. One driver doing the porsche chop on the other? Will that gray area brand this a racing incident? I guess we will see.

 

Pinching someone into a braking zone is one thing. I've done it and it's been done to me. To close the door on someone at that speed knowing they're closing on you fast is borderline criminal.

 

A bit harsh on Saini. "Mere mortals" should perhaps race slower cars or be willing to live or die by the harshness of how quickly bad things can happen and how bad they can be in fast equipment. I've raced with Jason and driven with Steve and respect them both immensely. Steve was definitely taking a defensive line into 5; a clear message to the #33 458 that "I am faster and do not try to overtake." I would not be surprised to find that both cars had gone back and forth, the 458 overtaking on the straights with power. I've raced primarily momentum cars for years and been frustrated by higher power cars preventing me from rolling speed in the turns and Steve may have gotten frustrated and made a tiny ( perhaps subconscious) move to the left as he saw the car he had already overtaken attempt to use superior horsepower into turn five. Been there and my mindset is "WTF, I am clearly faster he could learn something by following my line" The following car may have seen the blue car in his mirrors and thought to himself I can't lift or I'm going to get passed. That's why I mentioned above about the risks associated with racing between classes of different cars, especially when I am near 2 cars in class that might get racier than I like.

"Gentlemen" racing may mean less aggression and skill at the limit, but gentlemen should still try to learn every lap especially in these very fast cars. I suspect both drivers wish they'd done things differently and have some self blame

 

Totally agree. When you do what we do you have to keep your cool. Not always easy but an absolute necessity.

 

This accident is a time for responsible reflection not just on this accident, not just on CCR but on racing responsibility in a gentlemens series. This is the first weekend since I started hosting challenge races in 2009, that we've had a red flag because of an accident. Over the years CCR has strived extremely hard to avoid car to car contact and we've succeeded more so than any series I kmow. In our first championship season we saw mistakes differently than we see now. While it is rare, in the past when contact did occur it was because of inexperience. Now CCR is going through a transition where we are seeing more talented and experienced drivers and we are seeing the spirit, if not the letter, of rule violations leading to contact in different ways.

The amount of footage from this accident and its severity is such that we need to really analyize the causes and potential things we can do to prevent it. CCR has proven we can race without touching and this is the very foundation of the organization. As the organization evolves there are new challenges and this we will meet responsibly. Sometimes events conspire in the wrong way with hard results. With 180-200mph supercars this is not golf.

As for this accident, we will have a serious panel of pros analyze each frame in HD. I am also drawing upon my professional consultants experts (which my firm has) in accident reconstruction and perception reaction time. CCR will be producing a full report to deal wth this and make us stronger in the future. It's not what we say about it, more about what we will do in the future. I believe our analysis when completed will not only help us, but other organizations who strive to define and enforce a gentlemens racing format. Many series use the term but don't define it well enough. A racer that gives room and also wants to complete can be taken advantage of by someone who doesn't. This is a tricky balance but through our experience in the 60 races or more we've hosted, we are trying to best define it and live it as an example to others. The report will be through and discuss this in general. We will also be further defining our rule book.

 

Steve was first in class at the time and also in the points standing for the series. All he needed was a finish in Race 2 to clench the series title for 2015.

There were only 3 458's in Race 2 and Jim was leading his class and the series in points.

There were two other 430's in a red flag incident in the first lap of Qualifying that weekend as well.

Jim bumped his teammate in the rear when coming in for a pit check during practice..

We had several easy offs and spins during the weekend including a 355 with a stuck accelerator in Turn 6. Race 1 had a 430 slow speed spin out of Turn 5 with a tap in the wall for a local yellow.

The weekend format was different than a usual CCR event, with all of the PWC activities going on. There were fewer, but longer, practice sessions and the weekend was full of Pro racing hype and excitement.

Race 1 was the very end of a long day of PWC racing, and the track had taken a beating. There was torn up asphalt in a lot of the corners and more marbles just off line than I have ever experienced at Road America. So times were slower and I think an element of frustration existed at the end of Race 1. Track repairs and asphalt were made Saturday night and the track was much better and clean for Sunday morning Race 2. I think all of these factors go into understanding the mindset of the drivers on the track that day. When the green flag fell for Race 2, you could tell right away the track was better, it was a gorgeous day, and the cars had a lot of grip.

I'm relatively new to this, but I share the opinion of not racing amongst classes, especially in critical areas.

I do believe that 458 aero via EVO is a must on these cars for a number of reasons.

Great group of people, great series, and historically very safe. Let's learn all that we can as gentlemen and continue on.

 

Excellent reply.