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Tooth found in differential drain

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by c4b4the04, Feb 19, 2020.

  1. c4b4the04

    c4b4the04 Karting

    Jun 9, 2017
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    Was running fine, I had to drain trans and diff to replace shifter shaft seal. Pulled rear drain plug and bam, redirected the next month of my life.

    Based on the direction of the gear, looks like a reverse gear? I’d expect it to be a first gear but it’s not cut the same direction. Obviously it’s all got to come out. I’ve got a set of quick lifts under the car now. I’ve seen some pics of guys getting the driveline out that way. Advice welcome.

    Advice welcome as to what all I’m going to swap when I am in there. I’ll overhaul the water pump (just did belts but suppose it’s good to do those a year later too?), but what in the trans needs to be updated? Can I get away for 7500 in parts (I’m assuming this is the time for the diff upgrade too, it’ll all be out and in pieces)? Sigh.... spent ALL winter doing a dash, brake system, shifter, radiators and now have to drop the driveline. Sort of bummed today... Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login


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  2. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Very sorry for the bad news. Diff is the big thing but besides getting on Pauls list you have time to consider other needs and you'll see things as it comes apart.

    I have done a lot of those transmissions and Paul has done them too. Get in touch if you need any information.

    Give us a VIN and a transmission number and I'll see what TSBs may apply. There is an important shifting hub pall update if it is early enough.

    There is an ARP number for the better ring gear bolts Paul can give you when you order a diff.
     
    crinoid and MOSS like this.
  3. c4b4the04

    c4b4the04 Karting

    Jun 9, 2017
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    Cassidy
    Thank you for the support, I can't tell you how much that means.

    Any ideas if my guesstimate on tooth is correct? I'm trying not to freak out, as the rest of the oil looked pretty good and no shards, metal shavings, etc. were on the drain plug. Best I can tell from records, gear oil was done in 2005, about 3000 miles ago so this damage is more recent than that.

    I'll PM you the VIN. Its an early 88 Euro car, I just can't believe it grenade-ed a bunch of stuff in there, car was running fine. Reverse makes sense as I rarely need it living on a hill. If I am not too far off, it is the reverse gear, all the way to the right on the main shaft (by the way do you recommend the hardened main shaft? I have a full blown race car, this won't ever see that kind of abuse and I've heard the shaft acts as a 'fuse' of sorts for the driveline)...

    Thank you for the direction
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  4. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #4 Rifledriver, Feb 19, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
    The only change in propellor shaft I would suggest is a Modena engineering shaft. It is made of an alloy that will wind up and absorb shock. The heavy duty shafts just break the mainshaft and that is very expensive fix. Look at the splines on the end of the main shaft to see if there is any twisting. The main shaft is the upper one in your picture.
    No point in guessing on the tooth. You'll know soon enough.
     
  5. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
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    Quite possibly 1st gear. You caught it before it destroyed more parts. Think yourself as fortunate to catch early. Consider Water pump bearings, throw out bearing, pilot bearing, clutch slave seals etc. Newman diff.
     
  6. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    sad to hear the problems
    before thinking too much just dismantle all and then you will see what to do
    still have at home some gears looking fine. but be carefull, not all gears are matching together even they look nearly equal.
    and when you just in then I would renew all bearings and clean the sychros
    all will be a big job and you need special tools to remove 3 nuts
     
  7. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
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    Sorry to hear.

    Fortunate to have been caught early.

    You might find this vid of interest. Actually came in cheaper than I would have guessed. Used lambo tranny is only 6k.

     
  8. c4b4the04

    c4b4the04 Karting

    Jun 9, 2017
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    Cassidy
    I am seeing replacement diff's range from 3000-5200 USD. What is the difference? Would a diff from Superformance or Eurospares not be a good choice? Is there a link to find this "Paul" or "Newman" diff?

    I'm going to pull the side cover back off and see what I'm dealing with.
     
  9. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
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    #9 ago car nut, Feb 20, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
    The Newman diff uses the original Ferrari internals. Nothing wrong with them. The original welded diff case is the problem. Look up Paul Newman in search, and PM him.
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Buy it from Paul.
     
  11. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Thanks!

    I have another batch underway
     
  12. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Same trans used in many Audis. There are a lot of them out there.
     
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  14. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Its interesting to see the running changes in the boxes. The 365 having gone through the most revisions I think as they were trying to home in on a design that wouldn't fly apart. The early cars had no oil pump in the box, a lower oil level and a whopper of a propellor shaft good enough for a mac truck. A poor left side support, no synchronized reverse and a crown and pinion that couldn't take spirited driving. Even with all the changes from lessons learned the box has always been a step behind the rest of the car as it gained in both weight and power. If you put the 512TR or M internals in a boxer case you would have a car you could thrash relentlessly without worry.
     
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  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    The input end of the main shaft will never be strong enough. The coarse splines and the small size of the 1st and 2nd drive gears keep those from ever being strong enough. Put that gear box in a 4.4 liter car with 225 XWX's and it has a chance.
     
  16. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    I thought the 512TR box had some shaft and gear revisions that makes them not compatible with the older gearboxes forward gears forcing you to upgrade all of the gears if you replace a shaft. Has to be more than the angle of the helical gears no?
     
  17. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Ive never seen the internals of a BBLM box and I know they continued to be the achilles heel but they must be stronger considering how they were used.
     
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  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I don't thinks so. I'll ask but I know they broke a lot.
     
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  19. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    There were some minor changes. They went to a different gear tooth shape and even though they eyeballed the same they were incompatible. As far as the shafts go the only difference I am aware of is the splines the syncro hubs mate to are a slightly different size for some reason. You can put a late shift hub on an early shaft and it feels fine but put torque to it and it will shear the tips of the teeth off and spin. I had to take a BBi box back out and put a different main shaft in it for that reason. From 512BB up there were a lot of minor changes even though most of the parts look the same. Lots of incompatibilities.

    Modena will make a set of fine spline shafts and gears but you have the change everything. No matter what we are still stuck with that small input spline that just twists off.
     
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  20. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    I know they're messing with ratios here but more importantly running straight cut gears. I figured the box would be full of straight cut gears and dog clutches. A gearbox cooler too. Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  21. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Ferrari made those drop gear sets for the V8s too but are nearly impossible to find. I suspect they were straight cuts because no one cared about noise. I was under the impression LMs had a pretty standard box. I drove one once a short distance and it sure didn't sound like straight cut gears and it definitely had syncros.

    Ever seen the injector stacks?
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    In fact duh! What am I thinking? I had made and sold 5 sets of close ratio gears for BBLM and except for the ratios it was all standard stuff. We upgraded them to the late style syncro rings with the oil grooves in the ring instead of the gear.
     
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  23. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    the BBLM has much less weight than the street BB so also then less stress. also when once driving there is not so much stress anymore than when you just start driving

    so same as in my competition
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/koenig-competition-1-000-hp.192826/page-7, see post 153
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/koenig-competition-1-000-hp.192826/page-6, see post 145, different cover than BB or TR


    what are dog clutches?
     
  24. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    14" wide tires, a jump in engine output and WOT driving banging through the gears is harder on the gearbox that a street driven production car.... and I can't believe I had to point that out.
     
  25. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
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    The type of dog rings in a racing transmission. Also similar to M/C gearbox.
     

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