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thoughts on the Daytona and other V12 market

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by sjvalin, Sep 30, 2004.

  1. sjvalin

    sjvalin Formula Junior

    Aug 31, 2004
    713
    Nevada County, CA
    Full Name:
    Steve Valin
    So I am selling my 360 Modena to finance the purchase of a Daytona. I have been keeping an eye on the vintage V12 market since I bought my 360 4 years ago. I had considered selling my 360 and buying a Lusso a couple of years ago (probably could have had money left over for a 2+2, too!), but missed that boat (damn!). I see that 330/365 GTC prices have been on the rise, and are starting to be comparable to a Daytona. I see 2+2 prices, especially 365GT and GTE prices creeping up there and getting within spitting distance of the Daytona. The Daytona market seems to be fairly flat, even though it is acknowledged as one of the most significant road cars. I know they made more Daytona's than any other V12 up to that time. Is this the only reason? What gives?

    Does anyone see the Daytona market as flat, or has it started to go up, too? Asking prices in the last few months seem higher than they had been, but maybe it's seasonal. There is also few on the market at this time, but that may also be seasonal. Thoughts?

    I'm basically wondering whether I should be paying ~$130K for a cond 3 Daytona (like #14201 at Motorcar Gallery), or wait for a cond 2 to come up and maybe get it for around $140K (or am I dreaming)? Do I need to strike soon before I miss this boat, too?

    -steve
     
  2. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    Aug 1, 2002
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    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
    NO COMMENT!:)
     
  3. malcolmb

    malcolmb Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Apr 17, 2002
    937
    San diego
    Full Name:
    Malcolm Barksdale
    Go for the best you can find and afford, it will be less expensive.
     
  4. sjvalin

    sjvalin Formula Junior

    Aug 31, 2004
    713
    Nevada County, CA
    Full Name:
    Steve Valin
    Wayne,

    You are also in the market for something similar, and you are pretty savvy. I would very much appreciate your comments! It's always good to get other people's perspectives...

    -steve

     
  5. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    Aug 1, 2002
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    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
    Steve, I'm only joking, of course. Yes, I'm in the market for a similar car and I've noticed the same trends as you.

    While they have crept up slowly, Daytona prices are more or less flat when compared to several other models that were going for sub-$200K not long ago. The Lusso, 275 GTB, 275 GTS, 330 GTS, PF Cab II and Boano/Ellena are all examples of models that have recently rocketed right out of that arena and several cars that were previously sub-$100K seem to have jumped up and are now close to, or even over, the six-figure mark. GTCs are a good example.

    In my opinion, the biggest contributor to the Daytona's stagnant values are its production numbers, more than double that of the 330 GTC. That it belongs to a different era, stylistically at least, might also be a factor.

    Still, one thing remains to be seen. Will Daytona values be pushed up by the appreciation of models traditionally considered to be lower on the food chain? I know of an excellent 330 America for sale at $125K and an equally excellent 330 GTC with an asking price of $185K. It would appear that these cars have invaded Daytona territory. Will GTCs hit $200K before the Daytonas?
     
  6. bobleb

    bobleb Formula 3

    Mar 9, 2004
    1,244
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    Bob Lebenson
    I hope so.
     
  7. sjvalin

    sjvalin Formula Junior

    Aug 31, 2004
    713
    Nevada County, CA
    Full Name:
    Steve Valin
    Malcolm, that is my plan. I want to mitigate the risk of being outpriced again. Perhaps Daytona prices have bumped up in the last few months, and a cond 3 IS the best that I can afford. I haven't seen an asking price on a nice Daytona in the last year, so I have no idea if I could afford one when one does come up for sale. The fact that I haven't seen a nice one in a year, and only a few mediocre ones on the market now (at higher asking prices!) has me a little worried. Should I be worried, or just be patient?

    -steve
     
  8. malcolmb

    malcolmb Formula Junior
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    Apr 17, 2002
    937
    San diego
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    Malcolm Barksdale
    I am certainly not a soothsayer about prices but it seems to me that the pressures mentioned by Wayne will likely push up Daytona prices. I follow these prices out of habit and notice fewer cars on the market now, maybe everyone is happy. If you can do your own work the daytona is straightforward to work on. If compromise seems appropriate I would go for the best body and face the mechanical troubles as they come. Maybe it is just my bias but I hate body work. On these cars a "typical" repaint can be $30000 because they all rust. Many have been fixed along the way, I would try to find one of those.Of course engine work can be the same but then you have a known engine. Mostly they dont break. Just be patient and persistant. Or buy Rijk's, it is very nice.
     
  9. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    A lot of the price increases on some Vintage Ferraris is due to the falling Dollar rising Euro cars can be bought cheap in the US and shipped to Europe, and I also think due to cars just keeping value with inflation.

    I don't think prices will be falling unless something very negative happens to the World economy and value will continue to rise from inflation and the collectability of models.
     
  10. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155
    Be patient and only buy a very nice car!

    I bought my Daytona in April of '03 for $125K. I probably overpaid a bit at the time. My car had great paint, a nice interior, and fantastic history. It also had only 1K miles on a new transaxle and clutch and 12K or so on a competition spec full engine rebuild that was done to the Nth degree (all racing hardware, custom liners, trick heads, factory competition pistons, balanced and blueprinted...). I am the third owner, the second had it for 28 years so I have a book of receipts and a totally known history. It was a really nice car, and it was a euro spec early plexiglass car which is exactly what I wanted.

    But.....

    After I bought it, upon much closer inspection the interior was not as nice as I suspected, and I began to learn that really restoring the interior to perfection is $$$$. I also determined that the detailing of the undercarriage was not up to snuff and the engine bay, while decent, was just not that great. So... I began to correct these issues. As the correction process went forward, the digging in of coarse revealed lots of other niggling little issues that I didnt want to leave imperfect. The slippery slope had been trodden!

    Now, my car is just about back together after being off the road getting all this stuff (and a list that just kept ballooning of little detail stuff) taken care of. Its taken over 8 months and plenty of $$$, over $15K when its all said and done. Keep in mind I have done tons of the work myself. If you dont have many years of auto restoration experience and one heck of a set of tools, the cost will be double or triple!

    So, REALLY do your due diligence! The "nice" Daytona driver that you pay $120K - $130K for can very easily become a black hole with an irresistable gravitational pull against your wallet!

    So, buy the very nicest car you can find. The very top end of the Daytona market has seen values accelerate over the past 2 years. Great cars can bring $160K+. There are perfect Daytonas on the market now for $185K+. If you are paying someone else to do all the work, you cannot turn a $130K driver into the concours car purchased for $160K for the difference in price.

    I think (and I may be wrong) the perception that Daytona prices have not been trending up on the same level as other models such as the 330GTC is because the average price on the average Daytona has just not increased. ITs the very top condition cars that have see the price increase, and the "average" cars are somewhat stagnant.

    Given the number of Daytonas produced I would expect this trend to continue until the value of really great #1 condition cars exceeds $190K - $200K and thus the restoration of a #3 condition driver become economical. Of coarse the trick question is when may this occur. Could be a year or so.... could be 10 years.

    What I do know is that even a #3 condition "driver" Daytona, if the body is solid and engine strong, is a tremendous buy at $120K - $130K. Buy it, tinker with the cosmetics yourself, and drive the wheels off it! They are just tons of fun to drive, Im drooling in anticipation of finally getting mine back on the road!


    Terry
     
  11. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    Aug 1, 2002
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    I suspected as such a few months ago and set out to prove my case by talking with various dealers/brokers in the US and in Europe. As it turns out, the number of Lussos, etc that have crossed the pond as a result of the weak dollar is insignificant. I also suspected that reported sales of these cars in Europe as well as the prices of Euopean cars advertised in international publications might have had an effect on the American Ferrari-buying public's concept of what they were worth but, clearly there are other forces at play here. Besides, why wouldn't this have had a similar effect on Daytona prices?
     
  12. sjvalin

    sjvalin Formula Junior

    Aug 31, 2004
    713
    Nevada County, CA
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    Steve Valin
    Awesome post, Terry! I think you hit it on the head: the top condition cars are fetching more money, and eventually they will bring the higher dollars necessary to make restoration of cond 3 cars feasible. So, do you have any leads on good-top condition cars on the market? :)

    Luckily, I am fairly handy with cars and smarter than the average bear at figuring things out. I'm trying to come to a consensus internally over whether a solid #3 car that passes body and mechanical inspection is good enough for me to enjoy, or if I should dig deep (and cash stock options at a less than optimal value!) and find a top notch car...

    -steve

    "shop as usual, and avoid panic buying..."
     
  13. atheyg

    atheyg Guest


    Thats interesting, then it must be more inflationary pressures on them, according to Terry Daytonas have appreciated as well but clearly not as much as the more collectable rarer cars. Maybe some speculation in the collectable market as well.
     
  14. shaughnessy

    shaughnessy Formula 3
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    Apr 1, 2004
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    Thomas E Shaughnessy
    Daytona prices have definitely increased $10-15K in the past 6 month,
    I have sold a couple and having a hard time restocking

    Tom Shaughnessy
    Ferrari Parts and Sales
    San Clemente CA
     
  15. malcolmb

    malcolmb Formula Junior
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    Apr 17, 2002
    937
    San diego
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    Malcolm Barksdale
    Terry: I second your storey. I have owned my very nice daytona for three years now. I was given great advice when I bought it-"Drive it, enjoy it, dont try to make it perfect". I have followed the first two just fine, but of course have done lots to make it correct. I have done only the most minor things myself[ dont have much time, enjoy driving it more than fixing although I enjoy that too]. So I have spent about twice what you have but as soon as the a/c is complete I am finished- right? Except for the......which is a little worn.
     
  16. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155

    Its a disease. You pony up some pretty serious dough (at least to me) for a car. You love it, you drive it, it quickly becomes a close friend.

    You notice that the dash material has a very tiny stain up by the windshield. You point the stain out to your wife. She doesnt see it. You point at it and insist its there, but she says its only the shadow from a bug on the windshield and that your a lunatic.

    Still, you know better. Your friend has a problem. The dash is just not 100% perfect. This is a situation that nags at you as your try to fall asleep each evening. How can you just sit by and watch your friend deteriorate like this? Are you not negligent and abusive to a cultural icon if you allow this situation to persist? Of coarse you are!

    So.... $1,000 in mousehair material, 60 hours of labor at $65 per hour and a few hundred in other related expenses.... the dash in your close friend is now perfect. Dignity is restored. You are indeed a worthwhile human being, you are properly caring for your little piece of history and you can sleep at night.

    But wait! No way is the A/C supposed to blow that pathetically. The fan is running like crazy, but no air comes out the vents?!?!?! Thats just not right! My friend is in trouble again! Break out the wallet, we just cannot tolerate this!

    -----------------

    Like I said, its a slippery slope and there are no warning signs. Once you get on, there is no getting off!


    Terry
     
  17. F SPIDER

    F SPIDER F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Jan 30, 2002
    2,873
    NYC, A'dam, W'stock
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    rijk rietveld
    Before I bought the car WWoC did some things to the car:

    Rebuilt the brakes
    Put on a new Ansa exhaust
    New clutch

    All together in the last three years I have had WWoC do:

    Large service
    Synchro rings replaced
    4 oil changes
    Rev counter cable replaced
    Change points into electronic ignition
    New wiring harness
    Shorts taken out of the horn and lighter
    Light stalk rebuilt
    Wheels refinished
    Roof and trunk repainted
    Replaced the tires with Pirelli 600s

    To make the car perfect showcar, eventually it will need a respray and a new interior (no rips or splits, mouse hair is all there, but a bit faded)
     
  18. malcolmb

    malcolmb Formula Junior
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    Apr 17, 2002
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    Rijk: You are just getting started. Still, I wouldnt trade it for anything. Terry- perfect explaination. My one slightly worn camshaft lobe turned into a major engine out service last year, to make the motor of my freind perfect. New cams, new gaskets, may as well replace the 30 year old oil lines, needs a little freshening in the engine compartment, look, the fans motors are a little sluggish......Sota like your cam cover extravaganza. Are they good now? I love the interior of my car, just the right amount of patina. Or is that a little too much patina, maybe it is really worn? Unfortunatly for me my wife has an even more critical eye. "Is this thing supposed to drip?'" What are those drops on the garage floor? Aslong as the door panels are off, shouldnt I take a day or two to treat them? Look, some of the screw holes are enlarged-better fix that! Cable rubs on the inner door, maybe I should put a rubber piece to stop the wear, it might not last another 30 years..........
     
  19. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

    Jun 24, 2004
    9,741
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    Marnix
    It is very re-assuring to see Daytona-owners take such good care of their car (or baby, if you please).
     
  20. Bill Sawyer

    Bill Sawyer Formula 3

    Feb 26, 2002
    2,108
    Georgia
    I just found this Euro Daytona on Hertage Classic's website:

    http://www.heritageclassics.com/ferrari/71red365gtb4/Page.html

    What's the concensus on this car? It looks like it's in pretty good shape. No mileage claim, but the odometer shows less than 3000 miles. Can a garage queen be brought back to life for, say, $20,000? If so, you could pay $135,000 for this car, add in $20k in updates and have a great car for $155k, which seems to be less than what #1 cars are bringing today.

    Your thoughts?
     
  21. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Sep 5, 2002
    27,990
    MA
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    John
    Hard to tell from the scant description and the photos. It would be nice to see some shots of the underside of the car.

    Wouldn't this Euro car with the plexi front have originally been a car with speedo in kilometers? I would want to know more about the history, when did it enter the states, who federalized it, number of miles at the time the speedo was changed and obviously a thorough PPI before concluding much.

    John
     
  22. sjvalin

    sjvalin Formula Junior

    Aug 31, 2004
    713
    Nevada County, CA
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    Steve Valin
    Bill,

    I'd be wary of this car. I saw it at Fantasy Junction last month when they had it for sale for around $118K. Bruce Trenery (the owner) was telling me that the compression in a few of the cylinders was down and needed work. Next thing I know it's for sale for substantially more at Heritage (they also snatched up the Bill Harrah 365GT2+2 for less than $50K and are reselling it for $68K - I see a pattern here!). I would be sure the engine has been fixed. I also wasn't all that impressed with the overall condition of the car. It seemed a bit tired. It looks to me like Heritage did a thorough detail on it to spruce it up. Hopefully they fixed the engine as well. I think you'd have to spend more than $20K to get this car to #1 condition.

    Bruce was also telling me an interesting story on it. The owner apparently was told it only had 3K miles on it, so paid a substantial amount for it. It looked apparent to me and Bruce that it had a lot more miles on it than that. It also has an unusual non-standard center console. Throw in the US market guages on a supposedly euro car and there are just too many stories for me. FWIW

    -steve
     
  23. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 22, 2004
    38,832
    Isle of Luci
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    Jack
    I had a friend and 20+ year Daytona owner do a very superficial check on this car when it was at FJ. He found many, many faults without even looking hard. Trenery also told me about the compression issue. I doubt that it's been solved in such a short time.

    Jack
     
  24. geltman

    geltman Rookie

    Aug 8, 2004
    21
    After searching around Monterrey for a Daytona at "The Weekend' I left with nothing but the need for a tube of KY. I saw average cars auctioned for very high prices to the "who cares" crowd. Saw an ad for a reputedly perfect Daytona with 8" & 9" Borranis. Red/Tan for $165K.
    I flew to Boston for inspection with General Manger of KTR Motorsport and actually saw 2 good cars within 45 minutes.
    I bought the Red/Tan car with 15,000 KM (documented) excellent paint and interior except for new Mousehair needed and a teeny weeny bit of rust spotted through the undercoat behind the rear wheel wells for $140K. I expect to end up spending another $10K to get it to really nice condition.
    I want to drive it, so I will not overdo the restoration, but there will be no excuses needed when done. I would have been happy to spend the bucks for a perfect car. I have not seen anything as good at the price on either coast and I am confident that Daytonas will appreciate in the months to come.
    I missed my opportunity for a 275 GTB, GTS, Lusso etc. This is the last of the vintage V-12, 4 cam Ferraris. Need I say more?
     
  25. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155

    You do realise that you are commiting a cardinal sin here, right?

    PICTURES! How can you post about purchasing a Daytona and not give us pictures!

    Sounds like you got a pretty good car. If everthing else is perfect, your estimate of $10K to put it right is probably close. Being in a truely nice Daytona for $150K is much cheaper than buying a #3 condition driver for $125K. It sure seems the cheaper cars do sell though. I just wonder why folks justify it given the cost of bringing a "decent" car to really top standards. Then again.... I am guilt of this myself! Im about 300 hours and $25K into making my Daytona really nice and I thought I had started with a really nice one!


    Terry
     

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