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The end of wind tunnels in F1 ?

Discussion in 'F1' started by william, May 31, 2021.

  1. william

    william F1 World Champ
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  3. JJ

    JJ F1 Rookie
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    stavura, Jack-the-lad, LVP488 and 3 others like this.
  4. johnireland

    johnireland F1 Rookie
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    One can only ask, why is the FIA trying so hard to destroy F1? Nothing they have done in the last 10+ years has lowered costs or improved racing. Maybe it really is time for a break away series...one that will truly be the pinnacle of motorsports.
     
  5. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 World Champ
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    Binotto doesn't think the end of wind tunnels in F1.
     
  6. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    We could call it "One Formula" where there is a single specification that every car has to meet. For example:

    This is an open wheel racing series, nothing shall cover up the tires or hinder airflow to them, drivers helmeted head is exposed to the air.
    There is a defined box: if you car fits in the box it is acceptable to the race. Box size is exactly 2m×3.25m×1m
    There is a defined engine displacement: Say:: 3 liters, Engines must survive 1 race weekend. No ancillary power creating (motor or turbo or super) or storing (batteries generator) devices. Valves retracted with steel springs.
    There is a defined size gasoline tank: Say 250Kg no refueling
    Aerodynamics is limited to 2 wings one front and one rear single section. Pit crews are allowed to adjust wing angles driver is not.
    No other aerodynamic devices allowed. To T-tray, no floor, no barge boards, no winglettes, no monkey seat, no coandă effect surfaces: if it smells like an aero device it is not allowed. Under this definition those things surrounding brake rotors are banned while the air scoops are permitted. Chassis must conform to the "convex hull" rule.
    Driver must be able to see his front wing where it attaches at the nose of the car !
    Minimum chassis weight 1200 pounds.

    There is a tanker truck that picks up a full load of gasoline from a random petrol station within 50 miles of race track. Every car has to use that gasoline.
    There is a truck that brings in a pallet of fully synthetic racing oil. Every car has to use oil from that pallet. Oil additives not permitted unless on pallet.
    There is a truck that brings in a pallet of tires of various grades. Each team is allowed 25 tires of any specification they want.
    There is 2 hours of practice Friday morning, another 2 hours of practice in the afternoon.
    There is 2 hours of practice Saturday morning, and 3 period qualifying shoot out as today.
    Race is 200 miles or 2 hours whichever comes first.
    A pit stop is NOT mandatory.
    Inside edge of outside tires must stay inside the white line which defines the edge of the legal race surface. Transgression will cause the engine to run at no more than 50% power for 10 seconds. Monitored by GPS or some other track sensor. A blue light at the rear of the car will alert drivers behind of reduction in power.
     
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  8. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    #6 william, May 31, 2021
    Last edited: May 31, 2021

    Apart from a reservation about the length (3.25m is just above the size of a Midget, no?) that could be an interesting formula.

    But there are other things to add; manual gearbox, steel disc brakes, no electronics apart from ignition, free tyre choice perhaps.
     
  9. johnireland

    johnireland F1 Rookie
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    Starting to sound like an actual auto racing series.
     
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  10. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    3.25m is larger than any F1 cars in the 1960 and early 1970s. Many of which had wheel bases shorter than 90 inches.
    3.25m is "large enough" to package the engine+transmission+gas tank and cockpit.
    3.25m is short enough to prevent silly aerodynamic games.
     
  11. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    I purposely left this free.

    In addition, I did not specify that the tires come from the same manufacture each race. I left it free for the French GP to use Michelin, the Italian GP to use Pirelli, Korean GP could use Toyo tires, ...

    It is up to the teams to come to grips with the tires of the weekend that weekend.

    As to electronics, I wanted to allow 2 TV feeds from each car, and all the telemetry they can manage while still achieving 1200 pounds.

    I left the transmission as free so a team could lose weight on slow tracks that don't need top end (5-speed anyone at Monaco) or as many as desired at some other track. I also left the gear change up to the teams.
     
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  13. JJ

    JJ F1 Rookie
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    Why not just uncovered wheels and fits into the box?

    Other than that, whoever goes fastest wins. Figure it out.
     
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  14. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I bet Louise’s butler wishes the FIA had taken up my pit stop ban proposal.....:)
     
  15. fer312t

    fer312t Formula Junior

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    Although I would be interested in such a formula (although my rules would be a bit different) no manufacturer is going to touch such a series with a ten foot pole.:p
     
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  16. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    Not if they cannot showcase some advanced technology.

    F1 would break away from the present mould and go back to its roots of being a team-oriented series.
     
  17. PerKr

    PerKr Formula Junior

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    They can. It would be more of a guessing game (CFD results are more or less a result of qualified guessing and assumptions) as verifying CFD results in the windtunnel would be taken away. I would think this matters more in F1 than in many other motorsports due to the complexity of the aerodynamics and the vast difference between cars even though they may look superficially the same. Not as much of an issue when everyone is stuck pretty much the same chassis. But of course it can be done. It could have been done much earlier, it's just a matter of regulations and the teams would have to adapt.
     
  18. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    You need to package the driver, 250K of fuel and the engine within a very short wheelbase, and avoid lateral tanks for safety reasons.
     
  19. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    ^^^
    add to the 'rules' of Post#5 by allowing much more (e.g. unlimited) on-track testing. Probably cheaper than combined CFD/wind tunnel, and would bring more parity to the field.
     
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  20. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    I have been saying for years that wind tunnels should be illegal. Its the rich get richer. The little guys suffer

    I would also like all aero devices made much, much smaller and a stronger emphasis on mechanical grip, improving brakes with less aero, and increased power
     
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  21. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    With less aero, there is no reason to improve brake performance, it is tire limited anyway.
     
  22. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    #19 TheMayor, Jun 2, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
    Actually the opposite. With less downforce, the more mechanical grip you need -- that includes the brakes.

    Perhaps we are saying the same thing but I view braking as a system, and that includes tire grip as well as mechanical control of the brakes. Who is to say that the current caliper and brake disk method are the best system possible? Perhaps there is a better way, better materials, better electronics, etc.

    Perhaps a lighter weight, more reliable, and better controllability. Who knows? But you won't know until you look at every system.
     
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  23. AtSomePoint

    AtSomePoint Karting

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    Ok, I'll bite.

    The idea of "One Formula" sounds like fun per the criteria laid out so far but I noticed one element missing - What circuits are to be used?
     
  24. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    With less downforce the brakes can't cause as much deceleration because the tires don't have as much grip, thereby creating less heat and less retardation. Thus, the current brakes are far more than adequate.

    If you increased raw tire grip so that it is 4Gs instead of 2Gs, yes, you would need better brakes. As of now, we don't know how to do this without aero.

    [/QUOTE]Perhaps we are saying the same thing but I view braking as a system, and that includes tire grip as well as mechanical control of the brakes. Who is to say that the current caliper and brake disk method are the best system possible? [/QUOTE]

    Today's brakes are the best solution to fitting inside a 13" wheel. This all goes away next year.

    I agree that mechanical grip is but a fraction of the aero induced grip.
     
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