The Coughlan Affidavit | Page 6 | FerrariChat

The Coughlan Affidavit

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by hg, Jul 14, 2007.

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  1. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    12,917
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    The Butcher
    hmmmm....Mclaren was found to be GUILTY, so let's have that apology :)
     
  2. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

    Feb 18, 2007
    9,768
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    Florian
    "Vodafone McLaren Mercedes" is the official team name. Like "Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro"
     
  3. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

    Sep 25, 2006
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    Ian Anderson
    +1
     
  4. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

    May 17, 2006
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    James K. Woods

    Well, I noticed that too, and as previously posted, you could not imagine a Ferrari press announcement voluntarily naming a sponsor for a competitor under pleasant circumstances.

    I think they want the suits at Vodaphone to be uncoforntably aware of what they have bought for themselves with this season's money.
     
  5. hg

    hg Formula Junior

    Dec 26, 2005
    422

    I think your assessement is correct.
     
  6. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,884
    Sonoma, CA
    +1...that'll teach Vodaphone to leave Ferrari
     
  7. darth550

    darth550 Six Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jul 14, 2003
    60,791
    In front of you
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    BCHC
    Uh, YEAH!
     
  8. hg

    hg Formula Junior

    Dec 26, 2005
    422
    JEAN TODT: “INCOMPRENSIBILE” - For Jean Todt, interviewed by the Tg1 TV station, the decision of the Fia is incomprensibile. “If one is guilty he must be punished, instead no, there is nothing here; therefore if the McLaren team has been judged guilty, it is incomprensibile to us that there has not been any sanctions for violating the fundamental principle of honesty”.
    The CEO of Ferrari emphasizes that “we consider this decision prejudicial for the credibility of our sport ”. On the possibility of finding other proof of the culpability of the anglo-german team", he adds, “there is a risk for the McLaren team of exclusion from the 2007 and also the 2008 championship, but we will see what happens ahead”.
     
  9. hg

    hg Formula Junior

    Dec 26, 2005
    422
    These are the poll results from the most important italian sport newspaper "La Gazzetta dello Sport" current at this time:

    Questions asked

    1) It`s a scandal, now everyone will feel authorized to cheat...............66.5%

    2) It`s a Pontius Pilatus decision, but they should have at least
    assessed a monetary penalty.........................................................23.6%

    3) It`s a right decision as there was no proof that MC used the info.......9.9%


    Total votes tallied were 17,500
     
  10. hg

    hg Formula Junior

    Dec 26, 2005
    422
    FERRARI FUME AT RULING
    Ferrari have launched a scathing attack on the World Motor Sport Council, claiming their failure to penalise McLaren "legitimises dishonest behaviour."

    The furious Maranello team feel the WMSC have set "a very serious precedent," and find it "incomprehensible" McLaren have not been punished for 'fraudulent conduct'.

    Following an extraordinary meeting of the WMSC in Paris, McLaren were found guilty of being in possession of confidential documents belonging to Ferrari, yet due to "insufficient evidence" no sanction was imposed.

    That has left Ferrari officials raging, and within two hours they issued a damning statement, condemning the WMSC and their bitter rivals.

    It read: "Ferrari...find it incomprehensible that violating the fundamental principle of sporting honesty does not have, as a logical and inevitable consequence, the application of a sanction.

    "Thursday's decision legitimises dishonest behaviour in Formula One and sets a very serious precedent.

    "The decision of the World Council signifies that possession, knowledge at the very highest level and use of highly confidential information acquired in an illicit manner, and the acquiring of confidential information over the course of several months, represent violations which do not carry any punishment.

    "The fact McLaren were in possession of such information was discovered totally by accident and, but for this, the team would continue to have it.

    "This is all the more serious as it has occurred in a sport like Formula One in which small details make all the difference. Ferrari feel this is highly prejudicial to the credibility of the sport. We will continue with the legal action under way within the Italian criminal justice system, and in the civil court in England."

    Ferrari's argument is McLaren did not simply have details relating to the design of the car, but also fundamental basics such as tyre pressures, fuel loads, budgets - all relevant to running a team.
     
  11. hg

    hg Formula Junior

    Dec 26, 2005
    422
    Decision was an elegant device to escape from a potentially tricky situation, writes Alan Henry

    Friday July 27, 2007
    The Guardian


    Yesterday's verdict of the FIA world motor sport council satisfied neither of the two key protagonists involved in an increasingly acrimonious argument. It left the Ferrari team infuriated after their key rivals McLaren escaped apparently without sanction. On the other hand, it was clear that McLaren had been granted only conditional absolution after it was established that they had been in possession of confidential Ferrari drawings and technical data.
    Sir Jackie Stewart felt the verdict was unsatisfactory. "In truth I would have to say that I am sorry this whole issue ever arose," said the retired triple formula one world champion. "I think it is most unfortunate for McLaren that the verdict was not one of not guilty but what amounted to an acquittal on the grounds of insufficient evidence.

    If new evidence were to emerge to suggest that they have in fact used technical information acquired by their disgraced chief designer, Mike Coughlan, then they could find themselves back in front of the FIA world motor sport council facing the prospect of being disqualified not only from this year's world championship but next year's too.
    On the face of it yesterday's decision not to apply a penalty to the McLaren team was an elegant device to escape from a potentially very tricky situation. Had McLaren been excluded from the 2007 world championship, or even suspended from a few races, the commercial damage that might have been done to one of the sport's highest profile, blue chip operations would have been incalculable.

    Under the circumstances, and bearing in mind that the threshold of proof required to convict McLaren was extremely high, the FIA erred on the side of caution and decided not to apply the most draconian penalty at its disposal.

    Stewart added: "Personally I think the whole affair has been extremely negative for formula one but, having said that, I would have to say that I believe Ron [Dennis] when he says that none of the information illegally acquired found its way into the McLaren factory.

    "At the end of the day we know that the chief executive and senior management are responsible for their employees under the rules of corporate governance but, if one individual is operating independently outside his own remit, then it is right that such clandestine behaviour should be punished on an individual basis."

    Certainly yesterday's FIA verdict, for all the outcry from Ferrari, will be interpreted by many observers as proving beyond doubt that the sport's governing body in no way shows partiality towards the famous Italian team, as has been alleged by many observers in the past.

    More crucially, however, it will stir the enduring rivalry and resentment which has existed between McLaren and Ferrari for much of the past decade, part of which is the result of ingrained professional jealousy and part down to the historic reality that both teams have been implacable, wheel-to-wheel rivals for much of that time.

    The ultimate embodiment of this high-speed rivalry is represented by a front-wing endplate from one of the McLaren-Mercedes formula one cars which claims pride of place in the office of their chief operating officer, Martin Whitmarsh, and their company's technical headquarters near Woking.

    The endplate, from Mika Hakkinen's car in the 2000 Belgian grand prix, bears the imprint of a tyre sidewall from Michael Schumacher's Ferrari with which the Finn was embroiled in a wheel-to-wheel 200mph battle for victory on this epic circuit through the Ardennes forest.

    At the end of the afternoon Hakkinen emerged the winner but after the race the two men stood poignantly alone in the scrutineering area while the Finnish driver outlined what he felt were his rival's manifest professional shortcomings.

    In a sense that feeling of rivalry and resentment remains as indelible as that tyre mark on the front-wing endplate. Yesterday's decision of the FIA world motor sport council will have simply poured more high-octane fuel on to these troubled waters.
     
  12. hg

    hg Formula Junior

    Dec 26, 2005
    422
    This comment is from Ed Gorman, who has the inside track in F1.

    The most striking thing about the dramatic events unfolding in Paris was the furious reaction by Ferrari to McLaren's unexpected let-off by the FIA's World Motor Sport Council.

    The decision not to penalise the Anglo-German team incensed Ferrari, which described the FIA's investigation and decision as "incomprehensible". The Scuderia argued that the FIA had, in effect, "legitimised dishonest behaviour in Formula 1" and that it had set "a very dangerous precedent".

    What is clear is that the Italians had been fully expecting McLaren to feel the full force of the FIA's wrath. The belief in Maranello was that the admission by McLaren that Mike Coughlan, its chief designer, had received a large dossier of secret Ferrari technical information alone made some sort of sanctions inevitable.

    From McLaren's point of view the decision reached in Paris was almost the best they could have hoped for. Under the Formula 1 rules of collective responsibility, it could have faced penalties ranging from a large fine to being thrown out of the championship.

    But the FIA seems to have accepted the argument of Ron Dennis, the McLaren team principal, that his team had done nothing wrong and that none of Ferrari's technical secrets had found their way on to McLaren's race cars.

    However, the FIA appears to have left what amounts to a Sword of Damocles hanging over McLaren with its assertion that if any evidence does emerge in the future that the Ferrari technical data has been misused then the Woking-based team could be thrown out not only of this year's championship, but next year's as well.

    This "suspended sentence" is likely to have the effect of encouraging Ferrari more than ever to try and find the evidence to achieve what they failed to do in Paris.
     
  13. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    The fact that Ferrari got so excited makes me wonder again if this was not a very clever attempt to return them to competitiveness in this years WDC ... which they started fully expecting Kimi to walk away with.

    Instead Kimi went through a strange patch and Massa was not up to dominating a WDC ... and oops McLaren built a good car and have a great setup driver in Alonso, and double oops LH is fast and a good racer also.

    Thus this was looking like a 3rd year in a row in missing out and Ferrari paniced, started movements with Stepney by strangely pushing him sideways in the hope they pissed him off. They well and truly knew he was mates with Coughan ... and probably left stuff lying around hoping and praying that he would take it. Stepney played his role perfectly and the Ferrari masterminds dug into the red wine patting themselves on their backs for being so clever ... now they just needed to get the FIA to remove McLaren from contention ... tripple oops, didn't happen!!

    It would make a great movie :D :D, and far more interesting than just 2 guys trying to make themselves the dominant people in F1.
    Pete
     
  14. barbazza

    barbazza Formula 3
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    Sep 10, 2006
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    John
    I think I remember OJ's attorneys saying the same thing after he too was found innocent...

    The courts don't always get things right but at least its over.

    Now we just need a string of Ferrari 1-2s and no more reliability problems or rain. Let's keep our fingers crossed!
     
  15. LightGuy

    LightGuy Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 4, 2004
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    David
    Clever.
    Wonder what the sequel will be.
     
  16. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    If this is how FIA penalises not only blatant cheating, but outright theft and espionage by the top officials of a high profile competitor, there is nothing to conclude today but that F1 is totally corrupt. This was one of the last sports in the world I felt I could watch, where at least at the governing level it was policed and relatively fair. After this I can in no way believe that is true. There is no racing left to watch, its all to corrupt now. If Enzo were around, I am pretty sure he would park his cars and tell FIA to kiss his a$$. Dont know if anyone running the show has any balls left though.

    As to McLaren Mercedes, to hear so many top people were in on deception, I feel ashamed to have a MB in my garage right now.
     
  17. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
    2,598
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    Anthony C.
    Think of it as a Chrysler and not a Mercedes, it will make you feel better. :p
     
  18. moretti

    moretti Five Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 1, 2003
    58,456
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    John
    I feel worse with my BMW, they didn't even have the sense to try and cheat :(

    then again they don't have Lucifer running the company :)
     
  19. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    Again I honestly believe the original intention was for Stepney and Coughan to steal as much information as possible to help them turn Honda into F1 heros and thus make their name as F1 clever guys.

    Do you also own a Honda? :D
    Pete
     
  20. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    Paul
    If as has been reported Stepney was paid over 1 million pounds, thats more than just two clowns trying to get a better job. I dont know what those kinds of jobs pay, but I cant imagine Mutt & Jeff have that kind of resources, or would spend it if they did just to get a better job. The fact that other top people at McLaren seen the information and did nothing, is further evidence of many more people involved.

    As such, I believe it Stepney was paid by Coughlan, through MCL, to steal the information and pass it along. And its such a tangled mess, I wouldnt be surprised to see someone die or dissapear mysteriously before they can talk further. Man, I would hate to be either one of those guys facing time in an Italian prison after sacking Ferrari. Cant imagine the guards will come running in any big hurry when they hear them screaming.

    I agree with Russ, Enzo would say adios.

    I dont own any Jap cars.
     
  21. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    If Stepney was paid then that does complicate things, and disproves my view. Damn it was so much nicer.

    Does it make a difference though?. As far as I am concerned all teams know as much as they need to know about their competitors car so they win, always have and always will. That is motorracing.

    Again please do not confuse IP LAW with sport.

    Yes it was against the law but it really is simply part of the sport, ie: gaining knowledge about a competitors car so you can beat them, copy them for next, year, etc.

    My views are in these posts:
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=136924476&postcount=17
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=136924504&postcount=18

    I honestly do not see it as wrong from a motor sport point of view. Morally yes and illegal yes, but been done since the first race in one form or another.
    Pete
     
  22. hg

    hg Formula Junior

    Dec 26, 2005
    422
    LUCA DI MONTEZEMOLO today speaking to all the world Ferrari fans said one sentence "This story does not finish here!".
     
  23. 355

    355 F1 Rookie
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    Jan 4, 2005
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    Frank
    Yes its not over yet. Mcheaters will be paying the price sooner or later. If I was driving for them I would be trying to get out fast. This is Ferraris chance to grab Lewis. Im sure his dad is really pissed with whats happened. Alonso deserves to stay there. lol
     
  24. hg

    hg Formula Junior

    Dec 26, 2005
    422
    MILAN, 27 July 2007

    JEAN TODT reveals " The 9th of June we got together with McL to improve our relations: in the meantime, they were aware and they had our technical information. The FIA did not allow us to present our case. We were not given the possibility to actively intervene liked we should have ”.

    The day after the decision of the World-wide Council of the Fia, Jean Todt cannot hide the bitterness and the disappointment of how it all concluded: “I have only been able to ask some questions and to answer others - to accusation - but we have not been able to introduce our arguments and the documents to support these. The one yesterday, however, was not an audience in a court but a world-wide board meeting of the Fia, where the McLaren was called to answer some accusations and to which we were only present in an observatory capacity. This decision remains a very disappointing and amazing one. It is not acceptable to create a precedent in an important case such as this one, in which the ascertained fault of a serious violation of a fundamental principle of the honesty of the sport does not automatically result in a sanction. From our part we will go proceed with the legal actions in course in Italy and in England and we do not exclude to undertake other legal actions”.

    DISREGARDED AGREEMENT - the general executive manager of the Ferrari then reveals some backstage of the spy story: on one side, in fact, the McLaren was asking Ferrari to resolve the problems whitin the family and from the other it knew that its employee had secret Ferrari information. “A few weeks after the race in Melbourne, in occasion of a meeting with them, - Todt explains - McLaren proposed to me to reach an agreement in order to establish better relationships between the two teams and avoid respective denunciations to the sport authority. I answered that it was impossible to believe them, since in the past they, on their part, had disregarded all of the previous ones. There were further discussions and, wanting to believe that it was possible, I consented to approve this agreement on the 9th of June. For all that period and also after - the CEO of Ferrari adds - the McLaren was perfectly aware not only of the email sent from our informer (Nigel Stepney, ndr) but also of the fact that their chief designer (Mike Coughlan, ndr) had remained in contact with him and had received and continued to be in possession of a huge quantitative of technical information which was our our property. Therefore, from one side they were saying to us “let us trust each other”, but from the other they were hiding the most serious facts mentioned above, careful not to inform us about it, as the spirit and the letter of the agreement would have demanded ”.

    MADE UP POKER - For the Ferrari it has been like finding itself “to play a hand of poker with an adversary who knew already its cards. The McLaren - Todt emphasizes - has confirmed that they had to install a firewall in order to prevent that other incoming information from Stepney would arrive to the team in a traceable way. Moreover Coughlan had been invited to tell Stepney to stop sending information. What a pity that Coughlan had asked for our braking modulation system information and he went to lunch with him in Spain and then he returned serenely home with 780 pages of designs, outlines, data and other, I am citing the official FIA statement, which permit to plan, to develop, to manage and to race a single-seat Ferrari 2007 Formula 1 car. As confirmed from the same FIA decision yesterday, the violation is a given from the simple fact of possessing that information, which by itself constitutes an enormous advantage”.
     
  25. vroomgt

    vroomgt Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2004
    2,129
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    John ARBA
    Interesting point of view, but I think whether you describe F1 as business or sport is entirely subjective.

    Moving on RD is going to have a bit of a credibilty gap on this latest development re the "Agreement" he signed with Todt.

    As a sportsman he has blatantly used his position of superior knowledge and tried to cover his arse by making a grand gesture to a rival.

    As a businessman he has clearly read "The Prince" and followed the advice about keeping one's enemies close.

    I'm not here to defend anyone Todt, Stepney or anyone else but the sanctimonious pap and crocodile tears from RD regarding the threats to his integrity and honesty are becoming more and more intolerable.

    He is probably the best and worst of the Mclaren team. I admire his achievments from humble beginnings and all that but he has played with wolves long enough to howl like one.

    He needs to stop treating F1 fans and especially those of the Mclaren team like fools.

    I think it's time he went and will not be surprised if Ojeh, Haug and the entire pit lane are thinking the same thing.

    The odd Mclaren fan too.

    Really quite fascinating.
     

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