News

Tech review - Lead vs Lithium Batteries

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by ohared, Mar 29, 2021.

  1. ohared

    ohared Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 14, 2009
    152
    I have pulled some notes together for my own benefit. I thought I would share it here for your feedback, comments & corrections. I will update it as we progress our knowledge/experiences.
    Specifically if there is interest in UK/EU for the Antigravity option then we may be able to get a group buy deal. I have spoken with the UK agent.
    Dan (normalguysupercar) is super responsive and helpful. He still has an active discount code for the Antigravity battery in the US.
    https://www.normalguysupercar.com/shop/
     

    Attached Files:

  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3

    Mar 28, 2011
    2,143
    Silicon Valley
    Full Name:
    Keith
    What is the discount code for the US??

    SV
     
  4. gobble

    gobble Formula 3
    Regional Sponsor Owner

    Jan 29, 2010
    1,356
    Milwaukee, WI
    Full Name:
    Mark
    If NGS10 = 10% they were running 15% off just this last weekend. I almost bought one but opted to stay with AGM after speaking with a few shops I really trust.
     
    elt360 and Melvok like this.
  5. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3

    Mar 28, 2011
    2,143
    Silicon Valley
    Full Name:
    Keith
    What was the issue seen by the shops??

    SV
     
  6. To remove this ad click here.

  7. ChipG

    ChipG Formula 3

    May 26, 2011
    1,272
    Santa Monica, CA
  8. gobble

    gobble Formula 3
    Regional Sponsor Owner

    Jan 29, 2010
    1,356
    Milwaukee, WI
    Full Name:
    Mark
    I was just told by one "total crap I hate those" and another that he tosses a bunch every year and has the best luck with the plain old Autozone batteries. I won't name names but these are two of the best independents out there that I've done fob work for and really trust. I really wanted a reason to buy one but they talked me out of it.
     
  9. gobble

    gobble Formula 3
    Regional Sponsor Owner

    Jan 29, 2010
    1,356
    Milwaukee, WI
    Full Name:
    Mark
    Also Pegasus which is local to me has pricing on the 60 aH version that is lower than Antigravity's website. Again I really wanted a reason to drive over and buy one but didn't.
     
  10. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    May 21, 2006
    6,455
    West Coast
    Full Name:
    Ray Johns
    Braille i48CS - class dismissed.

    Ray
     
    GT2goneF and mdrums like this.
  11. To remove this ad click here.

  12. adamellisdj

    adamellisdj Karting

    Dec 15, 2020
    150
    Full Name:
    Adam Ellis
    Twice as much as the AG and then some

    Is it worth double?
     
  13. Jason B

    Jason B Formula Junior

    Apr 7, 2006
    318
    Hbg, PA
    I have one of these in my own car and it’s awesome. I’m in the process of getting set up on here as a vendor and then I can talk more about it
     
  14. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3

    Mar 28, 2011
    2,143
    Silicon Valley
    Full Name:
    Keith
    Just ordered a new AG for my FF.

    Have had an AG for my 458 and it now acts like a regular car. No tender needed as long as I drive it once a week! That’s easy!

    And the onboard BMS works great!

    SV
     
    Need4Spd likes this.
  15. SECRET

    SECRET Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    May 19, 2007
    701
    California
    Couple things about AG worth knowing before buying.

    1. The BT monitor is a great buy for any battery. You don't need the AG to use it
    2. AG battery does not yet work with the Pista. Not sure about the F8. The Pista has a connector that attaches to the OEM battery to detect other bits of data (not sure what, but likely temperature inside the pack). AG battery does not have this, so the Pista will trigger a warning light saying it will not charge properly. Not sure if that's true or not, but I ended up having to stick with the OEM battery.
    3. As someone pointed out before, while the AG has it's emergency start feature, you should be aware that you won't be able to jumpstart the car without risking damage to the battery. For cars that already have a lithium battery, that was already the case, so no big deal. For cars that are converting to lithium, that's something to keep in mind.
     
  16. adamellisdj

    adamellisdj Karting

    Dec 15, 2020
    150
    Full Name:
    Adam Ellis
    what amp hours? AG told me their 60 amp would go 4 weeks without a charge.
     
  17. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    20,361
    socal
    Is no one worried about the thermal runaway problem with Li? As a racer we see these used all the time. Fires result with greater frequency than is acceptable imo. Lead batteries just never have that problem.
     
  18. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    May 21, 2006
    6,455
    West Coast
    Full Name:
    Ray Johns
    You usually get what you pay for as the ol' saying goes.

    Ray
     
  19. Mikael-F360

    Mikael-F360 Formula Junior

    Apr 3, 2017
    692
    Finland
    Full Name:
    Mikael E.
    Is there an EU vendor for Antigravity or Braille batteries? Other than in the UK? I am looking to buy one without customs fees right now.

    I need to get rid of the lead battery. When cold starting the car it looses power for just a second every now and then. This produces electrical system warnings. Restarting the car clears them though.
     
    Melvok likes this.
  20. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jul 25, 2008
    13,303
    Amersfoort, Holland.
    Full Name:
    Mel
    Can you not get a BOSCH 75 Amps car battery in Finland ?
     
    Mikael-F360 likes this.
  21. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jul 25, 2008
    13,303
    Amersfoort, Holland.
    Full Name:
    Mel
    It is NOT !
     
  22. Mikael-F360

    Mikael-F360 Formula Junior

    Apr 3, 2017
    692
    Finland
    Full Name:
    Mikael E.
    Sure I can. But I am getting rid of the lead battery. Switching to li-ion!
     
    Melvok likes this.
  23. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jul 25, 2008
    13,303
    Amersfoort, Holland.
    Full Name:
    Mel
    O.K. …. I don't know why and see no logical reason … but allright friend … its your money :)
     
    elt360 and Mikael-F360 like this.
  24. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    May 21, 2006
    6,455
    West Coast
    Full Name:
    Ray Johns
    Melvok - do you actually have any first hand experience with using Lithium Ion car batteries?

    Ray
     
  25. DoubleD33

    DoubleD33 Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    May 2, 2012
    1,863
    Pasadena, CA
    Full Name:
    Dan D
    I had some issues with the car going into cardiac arrest with every system failing lights/messages coming on.

    My odyssey battery was about 5 years old, kept on a tender, and no issues upon start up.

    I finally took the plunge and got the 60AH antigravity. So far so good.

    I know some really push the Braille but I just could not justify buying that one.

    I almost went with another lead acid but decided to get with the program and go with the bleeding edge of technology.

    I don’t think it is a bad thing.

    Are cars that come std with a Li battery equipped with a different charging system?

    Will it burn to the ground or last for 10 years? Time will tell....
     
  26. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jul 25, 2008
    13,303
    Amersfoort, Holland.
    Full Name:
    Mel
    No Ray, obvious not and never will because I really see no reason why I should install not the same AGM battery that the factory does in all its Ferraris ... :)
     
  27. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    May 21, 2006
    6,455
    West Coast
    Full Name:
    Ray Johns
    Gotta love you Mel!

    I think you're forgetting that AGM is over 40 year old technology! :)

    You know, when I was a teenager and always modifying my cars out in the driveway, my Dad used to come out once in a while and look over what I was working on. Sometimes, I'd try to explain to him why I was changing the sway bar or intake manifold or something and he would usually always just reply, "Well, if it's so good, why didn't they do that at the factory!?" Perhaps a tiny bit like you, my Dad blindly thought that whatever happened behind the sealed doors of an automaker must be the absolute pinnacle of engineering technology.

    But his quip about, "if it's good, why don't they do that at the factory" always bugged me for many years. I mean, it does kinda make sense...

    As a 19 year old, I never really had an answer for his question. However, now almost 40 years later, as an adult with a lot more experience in business and also with cars, the answer is actually pretty straightforward: cost.

    A lot of what auto manufacturers do is a balance between cost and manufacturing compromises for speed of production, etc. Mainly cost. I think this whole battery issue with Ferrari is a perfect example of this: Ferrari knows the average customer isn't looking at what battery is behind the panels while shopping. As long as the car turns on and starts and all the flashy LED lights work, then they will continue to sell cars no problem. But they have to realize that the battery they are using is getting a bit long in the tooth. For now, it seems like they are just sticking a bandaid over the whole mess by supplying a $150 trickle charger and telling customers to forever babysit their cars. It's a solution, but is it really the correct solution?

    Haven't you ever wondered why a 2020 Toyota SUV or something like a lowly old Jeep or Honda can sit for a week or two and crank right over, yet your $300K Ferrari can't? I personally think it's power hungry electronics on the Ferrari. I don't know the in's and out's of Ferrari's ECU's, but they sure seem to draw a lot of power when they aren't doing much. Seems to me Ferrari could employ some sort of very small SSD to store data in the ECU and drastically cut down parasitic current draw. Or they could start using some sort of Lithium battery technology.

    My guess is it's all about cost; because if your average high quality Lithium battery costs $1000 and they are building 15,000 cars a year, that would be a quick and easy place to slash $15,000,000 off production costs and most customers wouldn't even know the difference anyway. It would be a very logical choice for Ferrari because it would benefit them while having almost zero impact on sales. You really can't blame them, if this is their reasoning.

    My point here is this: Ferrari's possible cost cutting measures shouldn't be confused with which battery is better. Lithium batteries are vastly superior. This is why you don't see electric cars rolling down the highways packed full of AGM cells and why all modern flashlights worth a darn use Lithium now. Even modern solar homes are moving towards Lithium cells.

    So whether you want to see them or not, there are many benefits. I just think using what is probably mainly Ferrari's cost cutting reasons as justification to not even investigate the benefits - or worse to dissuade others from doing so - seems a bit short-sighted to me.

    As far as Braille costing more than twice the AG battery, I think it is worth it and I have personal experience running Braille products in 3 different cars now. I've also talked fairly extensively with Braille regarding a lot of the issues which crop up on this forum relating to battery technology. While I do think the AG battery is provably a cost effective step up from a traditional AGM battery, I don't think it's accurate to compare what you are getting with AG to the higher quality Braille stuff (and if I'm not mistaken, I believe there are at least a couple of users lurking around Ferrarichat who originally went with AG and then later switched to Braille).

    Anyway, it's a decision everyone has to make for themselves, but I would hope you'd levy your opinion based on practical, first hand experience, rather than just blindly following what Ferrari does as justification for not doing anything. Braille is a great upgrade and really makes owning a Ferrari far more enjoyable. It's hard to put a price tag on that - unless you're a publicly traded auto maker, I mean ha :)

    Ray
     

Share This Page