Update, Picked up a 044 Bosch pump (the bomb, 400lph, 190psi) on my way home today. Installed it tonight. Fuel volume test post CIS is a solid 1400cc per 30sec @ 11 volts battery, alrighty then ! I'm guessing I'll push 1600cc @ 12volts (alternator operating) so fuel volume issues are eliminated from the equation. Tomorrow, after a few more confirmation volume tests and double check for leaks etc. I'll do a few more logged run tests. If the lean out issue is still there (and I have a feeling it won't be), then I have to believe it is a fuel distributor set up/flow or lack luster injector flow issue. It's definatley narrowed to that now.. FYI, I only posted the REALLY SCARY run logs in the last post...., at low load in the lower gears the A/F stays under 13/1 all the way to 7000, I can actually burn the tires (not chirp, burn !) on a 6500 rpm hard shift into 2nd floored. When this thing fuels to redline, it's going to be a monster, I think the dyno will show some serious 100+ HP gains (just what my butt dyno is telling me). Below is a lower gear, tire spinning, performance graph from Sunday, I am sooooo close to there ! Also, (and Larry Fletcher,.... please don't admonish me here) I HAVE TO CONFESS !! (raised Catholic..), In the process of the last couple days of logged runs, etc. I went over the edge........!!. Against all warnings, "Poindexter" (me)..... could not stop himself from exploring the inner sanctum of the fuel distributor (insert picture of global Ferrari community in collective wince here) to confirm the restriction issue. But, all is well, after veerrry, veerrry careful, inverted, and minimal dis-assembley, and without changing a single thing (as in everything index marked and documented, NASA clean room protocals involked) I found no major crud, (some "varnish residue" on plunger and components) and cleaned and blew out all parts and passages. (We are talking shiny baby's a$$...., every spring, disc and screw back in its original position and set....) Upon re-assembly and install, the cold start up/idle was improved, the A/F multi spike run graph was eliminated (excepting the one spike shown above) and the overall performance improved and smoothed across the range (sticky plunger ??) and the repeated duplicate run graph min/max A/F @ rpm/boost were virtually unchanged, as well as the WUR control and CIS system pressure readings,....hence my looking to fuel pump volume etc. as the fuel volume test @ 1000cc per 30sec @ 12v was also unchanged !?! Look for positive results tomorrow !!!! -Luigi Image Unavailable, Please Login
IT WORKS !!! IT FUELS !!!!! IT FRICKEN HAULS A$$ !!!!!! IT'S PUSHING 13 PSI BOOST AT 7000+ RPM !!!!! AND, MY BUTT DYNO SAYS SERIOUS NECK SNAPPING TORQUE AND HORSE POWER !!!! (insert picture of Slim Pickens riding H-bomb here) YEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAA !!!!!!!!! If the tires did not break loose in second gear, I am slightly afraid I would either burn the clutch, break a half shaft, or pull a got-dam WHEELY !!! Apparently the 308 QV is one thirsty little 32 valve 3 litre under boost (alot of boost ?!?!) the 044 pump did the trick (1600cc per 30sec @12 volts, as I guessed). It's now down to tuning control pressure and base idle A/F, maybe investigate injectors and confirm fuel distributor performance on a flow bench, so Carl can market the bolt on kit, and or stage 2 kit with confidence. It got dark on me tonight (not the best 90 mph road conditions in SO CAL!!) , but I'm scheduling first available dyno, and continuing tomorrow with road tests. I can't wait to make the run from OC to California Motor Speedway with the SO Cal Fchat boys for Ferrari Challenge on Saturday, the way my QV feels, I'll be right with the 355's and 360's, no problem (is Jeffery bringing out the F40 ? How about Armen, 288GTO? I'm feeling ready to challenge,... JK !!!) I may have to change my screen name permanently to "SOFA KING"....because I'm not just happy,............ I'm SOFA KING HAPPY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -Luigi (LOL, really..) PS: I'm off to make myself a very cold, 2 olive, Kettle One Martini.....CHEERS, CARL !!! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Well done! 13 psi should have you up around 350+/- rwhp Did you stop the run at 7000? On mine, the boost goes up quite a bit from 7000-7700. Also did you have a chance to have a look at any of the plugs after the run? 13 psi with no intercooler and stock 32 degree timing seems like an awful lot....I'm pretty sure my engine would be very unhappy under those conditions. That is a fact....I pump about 50% more fuel into mine than the math says it should need.
Looking at your graph, I'd be pretty strict about a 7100 rpm operating redline. Looking at the A/F curve you're again on the rapid A/F leaning ramp-up at 7100 rpm as the injectors cannot keep up with the fuel demand as it looked at the lower rpms with the old flows. This time, though, you are at much higher cylinder pressures and chance of detonation will be a bit greater as you lean out rapidly. Dang, at 350 rwhp at 7000 you do not need to go higher! again - congrats and good luck!
Yes, off the throttle @ 7000+ on my tach and A/F climb. I have barley begun to fine tune the control and system pressures, and where I start with the idle mixture adjustment has a lot to do with WOT/high rpm/boost enrichment curve of the new 086 wur. I agree, A LOT of boost for my current set up, and even at levels below what I am seeing, I need to tune to keep the A/F down in the 12s max. I am actually hoping that the boost levels I am seeing are not as high as the software is telling me (may be a slight set up-calibration error?) The pulley sizes (and RaptorV specs) we are using should really be netting under 10psi AFAIK. I'll have to look to Carl in regard to that, he has far more knowledge RE: the RaptorV perfomance and pulley size math. Only made 2 runs yesterday (time constraints) and both were done in less than optimal conditions, I'll definatley pull a plug or two this morning, and double check LMA-3 set up parameters. Once I can get out today on a clear and open road, I'll be able to concentrate more on the cockpit boost gauge etc. to confirm. I am pretty confident I'll be able to lower & flatten out the A/F across the range with the adjustability and fuel volume now available. -Lou
Lou, did I read someplace way way back that you were running race gas in your car or is this pump gas?
I agree, gonna have to bring the A/F down or the boost, or both (unless I make ignition changes). A little more tuning and perhaps a 3.1" pulley? We shall see what the Dynojet says about RWHP.
Pump premium on latest runs. But a fill up with 100 octane today before any more test/tune runs is in order.
Congrats - you really had to chew thru a lot of crap to get this right. Your car was much further out of spec than we previously believed, and then the 044 pump is a flat-out upgrade that made the rest come in. I want to thank you for your perseverance. It is really hard to read those charts - is that "Lean" spike at about 3500 rpm? If yes, it is just this: the boost comes in right there, and it takes a moment for the WUR to react and lower the control pressure. Lowering the control pressure a little more with the allen screw on the bottom may lessen this. But take note of where it is now before you turn it so you can put it back if it is not right. You can see by the duration involved that it is very momentary and not really a problem - if your data logging system wasn;t so damn fast ;-) it would probably not show up at all. As to octone rating - going and buying race gas (do not use avaition gas) every time is just not a practicle solution. But - go to Autozone or where ever and get the Octane Boost adative they sell... I use one of several brands. They take 91 Octane "premium" and raise it to somehwere between 98 and 110 depending on the brand and concentration you put in. Cheap insurance. Usually runs $3 a bottle, treats 20 gallons. Buy a few and just keep it in the trunk, add a bottle with each fill-up.
Carl, You bet !! at six bucks a gallon I don't think that 100 oct is very practical, but for saftey for the tuning stage, good insurance. Yes Sir, it is fueling much better and I am running logged tests with various control pressure and baseline idle mixture settings. We still need to re-visit the "why" on my particular FI system, but things are looking good now. Can you please comment on the boost levels I am seeing. @ 11 psi+ and the current A/F, I think my new "sustained rpm" limit for saftey is about 7000rpm. Below is the best so far: Image Unavailable, Please Login
to raise octane by full points requires ALOT more than a few ounces of additive, those additives are only raising the octane by tenths, i.e. 91.9. to get to 110 octane from 91 would require gallons of 120 or better. to calculate the octane you multiply each octane number by the quantity (gallons, liters etc. keep you units the same) and then add the two totals and divide by the total amount. E.g. 10 gals 91 octane = 910 5 gals 101 octane = 505 505 + 910 = 1415 / 15 = 94.33 octane and direct from Prestone.... Q. I'm constantly hearing about octane booster products. You say 0 to 60® can boost my octane by up to 10 points. What's a point and how does it relate to my car's performance? A. The term "points" is commonly used in the automotive industry when referring to the octane increase a product offers. This is different from the figures shown at your local gas pump, where the octane "rating" of a gasoline is measured in "numbers". This can sometimes create confusion as to how "points" translate to "numbers". The following calculation can be used to translate points to numbers: 1 octane point = 0.1 octane number Increasing the octane of gasoline has several positive effects on automobile performance. A higher octane gasoline will allow a car to run smoother by reducing knocks and pings, which ultimately restores lost performance. An example of this might be: Common regular unleaded gasoline is rated at 87 octane at the gas pump. If you treat that gasoline with an octane enhancement product that claims a 5 "point" increase, then the end result will be a gasoline that has an 87.5 octane rating. In this example, the octane enhancement product provided 5 "points", which is equal to 0.5 octane numbers. Prestone® 0 to 60® Booster provides 10 points of octane increase, which will increase the octane of regular unleaded gasoline by a full number. In this case, an 87 octane rated fuel would go to 88 after treatment with Prestone® 0 to 60® Booster.
I found a tech site that had this for 104....but of course I can't say if it's right or wrong for sure. Jon, Can I use octane booster with pump gas instead of the race gas mix for my 2000 TXT 321. Thanks, Bruce. Bruce, One of the problems with over-the-counter octane boosters is that you are not really sure how the chemical(s) is/are going to affect the real-world octane ratings. A very effective octane booster, MMT (methyl cyclopentandienyl manganese tricarbonyl), is the base product in both 104+ and 104+Super octane boosters. A can of this will treat about 22 gallons (83 litres), raising the Research octane of low-octane unleaded (91-93 RON) by about 3-4 and 4-6 respectively for 104+ and 104+Super. With premium leaded and premium unleaded (95-98 RON), however, this boost effect decreases to 0.5-1 and 1-2 respectively with 104+ and 104+Super. The reduction in booster/pump fuel ratio may not cause the octane rating to progress in a linear manner. I'm also not sure just how the chemicals in octane boosters affect certain materials in Trials engines like phenolic resin reeds, carb o-rings/floats etc. so I don't recommend the use of over-the-counter octane boosters. I'd opt for a combination of about 30% unleaded race gas to premium pump fuel, just to be sure. Jon
ooooo, MMT that stuff is bad news for Cats, you can literally watch the metal bits spit out the tail pipe. and I agree most octane boosters have some unknown and known bad side effects. really it's easier to buy the higher octane fuel than try and treat the lower, esp in Socal where you can buy it at the pump. remember the toulene adders....
As I had suggested before, I think this is wise. Based on the graph looking at the climb rate of the A/F and the rpm, you would have a similar lean-out auto shut-off occur at about 7600 rpm anyway. And certainly if you move to pump based gas a nice fat safety margin is very smart. Anyway, you're making so much power by then the last few rpm are not neccessary for street use. It's already a terrifically good engine -- chasing the last few rpm could damage it -- especially as you move to more common fuel. I also think it is very clever of you to do the initial tuning on racing gas to provide an initial safety margin, and I will copy you doing this as I set up my new heads and 10.5:1 pistons before going to pump premium.
I bet we could do a whole thread just on octane boosters. Sounds like we have some very knowledgable people in this target topic. Lets do that (start a new thread for it) if there is interest rather than diluting this thread too much. I want to know more about that too - so I do not give out bad advice when I am asked.
Gentlemen, Just a quick pre-dyno post. I took a run from Newport Beach up to the Ferrari Challenge race in Fontana with about 8 other Ferrari's on Saturday. A "spirited" run (read 3 digits on the speedo) 360 CS', F-430's, 328, 355, I had no problem staying right with the pack, not to mention the comments from the other F-car guys, and the DarthVader Ti-fighter sound at sustained RPM !!! Big grin here. No longer will I just nod my head and smile at "slow 308 jokes", now my answer will be.."O RLY ?!!" -Luigi
Still have not dynoed. But its fueling well across the board, and boost is under control. I'm still tuning for max safe rpm. Stay tuned for dyno HP results. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Lou, Will you go for the extra 800 rpm? I think the best part on my car is the 7 t0 8 climb and sound. Its a ferrari and not a mustang. Come on.....everybody is doing it.
The answer to that would be...OF COURSE !!! I'm actually almost there now, but the tuning mods necessary are probably going to be part of a "stage 2" kit. Watch for stage one kit dyno numbers, and then...... FYI, now that its fueling to 7000, with what feels like (butt dyno) about 300rwhp, I'm really not sure if I need to go to 7800. I guess maybe for the salt flats or top of the front straight on the track, but for the street and canyons...I'm there !
I spoke with Lou today and he has some VERY impressive new dyno numbers He seems to have also worked out his fueling issues! I'll leave it to him to post his results. Congratulations Luigi ______________________ "My name in print! That really makes somebody! Things are going to start happening to me now"
