SC kit for 308/328/Mondial

Carl,

i assume this is the same system discussed on Fchat earlier and that Nick Forza is working with per se? The car here is a Euro 85 QV and looking very much forward to this kit. Am awaiting price as already have uprated cooling and XDI ignition system... and removed AC system so that is out of the way.

 

Steven, this is a different kit from the one that smg2 has been working on with Nick.

 

Ahhh ok. Yeah, just realized we have competition. This is great news for 308 owners as the market is about to open wide with SC choices

Oh man, 2007 looks to be a fun year for tracking my modded 308 ''''

 

Moderator note: It's ok to keep the forum informed regarding your development efforts, but per the FChat rules please don't make it a sales pitch it here unless you become a sponsor -- and please don't put a signature line with your website on every post.

But in any case, there are a LOT of us interested in supercharging our 308s, especially the QVs, so welcome!!

 

Hey Carl,

This sounds great. I would be interested too, as long as the stock tranny can handle it.

 

From the other projects underway, the weak point isn't the transmission, it's the clutch. The stock clutch starts to slip under heavy load at about 380 hp at the wheels. Smg2 and Mke have both exceeded the clutch's limit at about the same horsepower and recommend upgrading the clutch. That's more than a 75% increase in horspower over stock.
Thor

 

380 rwhp is about a 100% increase....a stock QV will dyno about 195ish. I had 300rwhp with a kelvar disc and a 20% heavier pressure plate and never had a problem. At 360+ rwhp (I hadn't been on the dyno, and still had some tuning to do), that clutch was totaly fried after about 15 minutes. I think at 300rwhp I was at about the safe limit for that set-up, maybe 325, but no more. With a stock clutch I expect problems to start in the 250-300rwhp range.

Norwood can do a single disc kevlar set-up for any hp for something like $800. Nick has a pretty nice looking twin disc set-up that would have less pedal pressure, but it runs closer to $3k last I heard. I think Nick also has a carbon-carbon version of that now, he didn't when I did mine. I went with a tilton triple disc carbon-carbon, it's really nice, good to 800 ft-lbs torque, pretty smooth with a honda civic light pedal, but $3400 for just the clutch, then the flywheel had to be machined to install it, or about $5k for a complete set-up wiht a new flywheel.

 

Mark - is that what you had, or did you have a different kevlar setup?

 

I bought mine from Italian Design. I think it was a 365 presure plate to get the extra 20% spring force and a kevlar disc made by I don't know who. It was about the same price, I had been dealing with Butch for a lot of other stuff and just went with him on the clutch....I guess he sold the bussiness now, I got someone else the last time I called.

I know Paul (turboQV) has the norwood set-up on his 400-450 hp (I don't recall) turbo QV and is happy with it.

When mine failed I guess it was my fault. I decided to turn around, so I swung around at a side street, but couldn't pul right back out because of traffic. When there was a little break in traffic, I pulled out briskly....but I had not shifted into 1st, I was still in 3rd. The thing has so much torque now I honestly didn't even notice the wrong gear until I realized I was up to 65 and hadn't had to shift. The clutch slipped the next time I got on the power hard. Kevlar is appearently very sensative to getting hot, you have to be very careful bedding in the new clutch, I must have glazed the flywheel/pressure plate pulling out and it was scrap after that.....or maybe it just finished off a clutch that was already on the edge. I had about 15,000 pretty hard miles (my auotX starts consisted of winding up the engine to 4000-4500, depending on the corse, and then dumping clutch while slamming the gas pedal to the floor) on it with the 300 rwhp engine. Either way, it was dead.

 

Carl was messing with his Porsche 928 race car on the dyno to see if he could find the upper limits of the Bosch CIS, and he shared his graphs with me. It's the same CIS system we have on our cars, but a different WUR. This should answer a few questions people have about how far you can go without replacing the FI system. Here's the text from his email...

The graphs got added in reverse order, which should be evident looking at the A/F ratios. The Carl2.73pulley.bmp is first, then the Carl2.93pulley.bmp is next. Sorry about that.
Thor

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Spent 4 hours at the Dyno today – made many adjustments, changed pulleys, tweaked settings and picked up almost 50 HP more than I had 1 week ago at the Autobahn event.

DISCLAIMER: please remember that these results are not from any of the regular kits we sell. This 928 and I are “off the page” and experimenting with strange things that no one in their right mind would repeat. ;-)


Two dyno charts attached – the ones labeled “Carl2.73 pulley” were made using a 2.73” pulley on the XB-1a Gear-driven 1200 CFM blower I am using on this car. The dyno pulls from the 2.93” pulley (larger pulley produces less boost) are on the other chart.

General Setup: DynoJet brand dyno with only SAE correction on. Smoothing set to 2; with smoothing off the numbers were all higher by 1 HP or so, but this is easier to read. “Smoothing” averages the peaks and valleys and the posted figure is a little lower as a result. Boost was measured at two locations – right at the outlet of the intercooler just before the motor, and in the central intake plenum (after the throttle body).



Comments about Carl2.93pulley.bmp:

AT TIRE: 380hp, 392 ft lbs torque

AT ENGINE: 437 HP, 451 ft lbs torque

This pulley on this blower produced 8 psi at the intercooler exit, and 6 psi in the center plenum.

We discovered that we could fuel to a12.5:1 A/F ratio all the way to 6200 RPM.

The HP peak was back at 5500 RPM, and the peak torque was at about 4750 RPM.

You will notice the A/F ratio is very rich at speeds under 4300 RPM – but that gave us the nice flat A/F ratios from 4500 to 6000 RPM. When we tuned it for the bottom end, we lost fuel at the top.

This suggests its time to change the taper in the CIS air-flow venturi, or change air-flow shoe altogether to one with a steeper wall. Frankly, even as rich as it was under 4300RPM, it ran just fine down there and would still be street-able.



Comments about Carl2.73pulley.bmp:

AT TIRE: 406hp, 419 ft lbs torque

AT ENGINE: 467 HP, 482 ft lbs torque

As expected, the smaller SC pulley produced more boost – but the CIS system ran out of fuel at the top end.

This pulley on this blower produced 10 psi at the intercooler exit, and 8 psi in the center plenum, consistent with the 2 psi drop in pressure going thru the intake shoe as with the other pulley.

We tried every trick in the book to get more fuel thru the injectors at the top end and just could not get ‘er done – and came away with the feeling that we may have found the ceiling for how much a CIS mechanical injector can spray.

We were able to confirm that fuel delivery was not a problem – we had the fuel at the motor – we just could not get the mechanical injectors to take anymore.



The mechanical injectors for this system come in only one model and size – there is no “bigger injector” to move to. There is a CIS injector that Mercedes Benz used for their 420 HP CIS installs, but it is shorter and when installed in our manifolds it is severely shrouded (BTDT).

Frankly, I can take one step back to the larger pulley that produces a little less boost, fuel to 6200 RPM, and go racing at 437 HP 451 ft Lbs Torque and be competitive.


Hope you find all this interesting….

I have a little 6Mb video of the car on the dyno I can email you - if you would like to see it just let me know.

Carl Fausett
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Carl,

Most impressive data and thanks for taking the time to find the limits. Like how you mentioned tracking the car. Looks like there will be two competeing SC systems and my concern is keeping the car's bits in a safe zone as it were. Last thing i want is to blow up my engine or an unreliable system. This is why i decided a Norwood Turbo was out of the question (well, that and Turbo can have a nasty curve IMHO).

 

point though, the ferrari and the porsche do not share any of the same components. i have the bosch book which bears this out. about the only similarity would be the 'CIS' layout. not that this would be a hinderence for carl in the least. just a FYI on the CIS system. the ferrari shares more with the mercedes in terms of cis parts. injectors too

bosch also changed the funnel the early basic cis had a taylord funnel to specific engines where as the later lambda versions used a conical funnel.

i haven't run into a lean problem yet but a rich one.

 

ummm, it looks like both graphs are quite lean and detonating, the top graph severly and on the verge of exploding. They may be just a touch past the limit

 

Very interested!

 

I am very glad people are finally developing an SC for the 308's. As a matter of interest to the uneducated how does an increase of 50% or more HP and TQ alter the 0-60 0-100 and 1/4 times etc.

 

not sure but i managed more than 50% something around 75%. power to weight on the mondial went like this:

stock; 3500lb/205~235hp = 17.0~14.9lb per 1HP

SC; 3500lb/404hp = 8.6lb per 1HP

it would be the equivalent of stripping the car down to 2000lbs with the stock engine. i think it should have quite the effect. it moves soo much better now, however the stock clutch is getting toasted so i have to take it easy until i get the replacement. so drag light launches are out, i'll roll on and do passing runs and it's quick!

 

Thanks for this. I notice some magazines are now quoted power to weight ratios. It would be great if a 308 could have similar performance to a 355 etc.

 

Carl -- does the Mondial you're doing have stock distributors, or has it been upgraded to a direct-fire ignition like the Electromotive XDI?