Restoring my Grandfather’s Three Pocket Watches - Elgin, Waltham and …

I would say there are two answers to the spring (probably a little of both). As mentioned, it may well be "set" (shot). The other possibility is just that the watch may be so dirty, etc there is too much friction in this unjewelled watch to get it to run until fully unwound. Depending on all party's interests I'd probably disassemble, clean, lightly oil and see if it will run as-is. It will probably be hard to spec a new spring for this as it is essentially a mini-clock spring but I have never tried. Since the movement plate allows access for a spring change without pulling the full plate you could do it "step-wise". I have a half dozen of these and have only bothered to get only 2 or 3 to run well but as a family heirloom it is worth pulling out the stops.

 

I’ve been slowly working through cleaning parts of the Elgin, one bin of the parts tray at a time. This thing is filthy! There’s dark black oil (looks like old motor oil) all over parts that don’t need to have lube on them. It looks like someone greased the gear teeth and now it’s all gundged up in the teeth of the pinions.

This will be the first watch I’ve had to give more than one trip through the cleaning solution. First round just to get things broken up. Follow that with a manual cleaning with Rodico and sharpened pegs of wood or soft bristle brush to get the now loose gunk from the teeth. Then a second run through to make sure it is truly clean.

 

A thought just came to my mind. @Brian A , from the way you’ve described your grandfather(s) as handy fixit type of guy(s) and the look and location of the oil and grease in this watch, I have to wonder if he (which ever owned this one) didn’t “service” it himself once upon a time.

There is way to know for sure, but it does look like it was lubed with motor oil, the gears are greased, there’s a bit of oil on the threads of each screw as if someone dipped them before assembly to keep them from ceasing... the same way it would look if you took apart a piece of old farm machinery... I think this needs to be filed under “things that make you go ‘hmmm’”.

 

Here’s the best image I can get to show the sludge I’ve been talking about. This is after one run in the cleaner and half-way through brushing (bottom side of the ratchet wheel).

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The face of the brass in the dollar watch is just tarnish / oxidization and fingerprints (which have oxidized).

As for the oil and grease, I think it is pretty cool that they might have tried to service the watch themself. I don't know that I'd have had the guts to try it (says the guy currently working to restore it!) without being able to get all of the tools and oils. I am going to need to change my cleaning fluids before starting the next watch though

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Full-disclosure, I always try to give the owner a heads up in a private message before posting any "bad news" to a thread such as this.

In keeping with that, I had to reach out to Brian after putting the balance assembly under the microscope to clean and inspect it. The lower pivot had a slight bend to one side, only a few degrees and it was running when it arrived. After speaking with Brian it was decided to plan on replacing it, do things the correct/best way". I found a source for a replacement then set about attempting to straighten the pivot with the tools I do have available (which are not the best for this job). I was able to tease out most of the bend and would otherwise be happy to suggest reusing the original (I thought it might be ok in the first place and wanted to try this part before replacing it) until I got it cleaned up and realized that part of why it looked "off" to me is that the bottom of the pivot is mashed up instead of being flat or domed as it should be (see top of the picture for a good pivot, bottom where the green arrow is points out the damage). You can even see a bit of "mushrooming" on the left side of the pivot in the picture.

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This, to me indicates that the bend in the pivot is the result of the watch having been dropped or knocked and the balance staff impacting the cap jewel. In a modern watch, there are shock-prevention systems in place to safeguard in just this event. That wasn't the case back in the day. So, I'll be ordering that replacement part now as this is not something I can repair. The roller pin jewel is a little off-kilter as well so I'll address that while I'm at it.

 

Thank you. I bought myself an Amscope UHM350 which isn’t really a microscope by definition but a dedicated macro camera.

It not only lets me take close-up images and from them get very accurate measurements through some nifty software. Bonus, it’s mounted on an adjustable arm with a threaded bases so I can mount it to a milling fixture to see what I’m doing when making parts.

For basic inspection, I forego the PC and just connect it directly to either the monitor at my work bench or when I need a better view, the large TV I use as my primary CAD monitor. It really is amazing what you can see this way! Many a splinter and shard of metal from the mill have been found in my fingers thanks to it as well.

 

Starting to reassemble the Elgin this morning. It’s my day off so I was able to get some quiet time in the lab.

The keyless works assembly on this is nothing like anything else I’ve worked on so I’m glad I took step-by-step pictures of the disassembly.

Dial side (pretty much complete):
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Back side (lots to go):
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If you look at the first picture of my last post, you’ll see a little tab mounted near the edge of the main plate on the very left. I had to reach out to Facebook to find out what this does as I’ve never seen it before. Apparently it is a sort of “function” switch for the movement that allows it to be used in different ways.

In the current setting, which is how it was when I received it, when removed from the case the keyless works defaults to the setting position. If toggled the other direction, the movement will default to winding.

My understanding is that this is useful during engine-out (ok, thats not an official term but I’m usurping a term I’ve only ever learned on f-chat!) services.

 

Yes, the toggle allows pendant set watches to remain in a wind position to allow, well, winding with a bench key. It is helpful too as when one is doing position testing you want to test with about 220 deg amplitude horizontally which then drops to about 180-190 in vertical positions. So you need to not fully wind and sometimes holding the ratchet one has to unwind a little. Trying to insert in and out of a case to do this is a bit risky, etc. Some watches from about 1900 on will have a blue colored screw (or marked screw) to turn on the upper plate - it is not a plate screw and this holds the watch in "wind" position.

 

I haven’t replaced the mainspring yet and the replacement balance staff hasn’t arrived... but... as part of my process of diagnosing issues with a movement I like to put things together and check that I made the right call.

When winding the movement up, I can tell that the mainspring is slipping. From having looked at it previously I am absolutely positive that the spring is slipping on the arbor, not the barrel. The new spring will solve this issue.

The balance seems to run quite well given the very minimal amount of wind I can get before the spring slips. The new balance staff I think is still the right call to avoid further wear to the bearing or cap jewel but it sure was nice to see everything alive this morning. (Timing adjustment arm is not on and the new staff hasn’t arrived yet).

 

It really did clean up nicely.

 

How about a little "Before & After"? The areas inside the red circle are what I'm specifically trying to draw attention to here. In the "before" you can clearly see the corrosion/oxidation built up (green, brown, black). In the "after" all that remains is some darkened discoloration from the damage to the nickel plating that was done by the corrosion. The discoloration cannot be removed from the nickel plated parts without replating but I've attempted to remove as much as possible from the steel parts (the arms) with a set of scratch brushes and some gentle sanding. I don't want to remove too much of the original finish nor do I want to erase the signs of wear as that is part of the story of the movement.

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In addition to this, here is where I believe the slippage of the mainspring is coming from. The red arrow on the left (pointing upwards) indicates a gap much larger than I would expect. The red arrow on the right, however, indicates where the spring is pulling away from the arbor and slipping off of the tooth. This is the issue that I believe is preventing a full wind from being possible. Installing the new mainspring should remedy these concerns nicely.

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Yeah... the mainspring was “set”. Can you guess which one is the new one? Aside from the obvious overall shape difference you can clearly see how much tighter that center spiral is on the new one. This is keeping it from slipping on the arbor.

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Unfortunately the ratchet screw sheared off when I was putting things back together. I was able to find a viable replacement for the time being in my parts bin. (Shown in the image center of the larger gear on top of movement in view / broken one in the work mat next to it).

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Fortunately there’s a great online shop called Dave’s Watch Parts (no affiliation other than being a satisfied customer) that carries a huge assortment of NOS parts for these antique American pocket watches. One quick email and I’ve got a quote for a factory original replacement.

 

I probably should have messaged you yesterday. Once I saw the top plate I realized I have a parts movement. I didn't want to jynx you or presume a part would snap or get lost. Anyhow if you need anything I'll send it gratis. I use Dave's from time to time but spending $7.50 on a 10c part gets annoying.....Which screw are we talking? If it is the one for the large gear over the barrel I snapped mine too...Anything else, let me know....BTW for future reference, the screw over the smaller wind wheel always turns counter-clockwise to tighten except on the Hamilton 992b/950b - maybe some others. I can only imagine how many got broken in 1940 when Hamilton switched over....I fell into that trap on that watch.

 

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Now that the watch is running with the new spring (which was ordered based on the measurements of the one in the movement when it arrived) I’ve found that it has far too high of an amplitude. Looking back at the picture I posted here about the damaged balance pivot and my comment about the roller jewel being cocked to one side, something hit me.

It is my belief that the spring in the watch when I received it was too strong and likely installed during some previous service... perhaps with the motor oil, cutting fluid, and grease?

Elgin part #817, the mainspring for this watch, was available in no less than 4 different strengths, this being the second weakest but still too strong.

As the balance goes to 360 degrees of amplitude, the roller jewel comes full circle (pun intended) and hits the outside of the pallet fork. I believe this explains why the jewel in this watch is knocked to the side. After years of running too strong a mainspring, it has been knocked loose from its perch and likely tops back and forth each time it hits the pallet fork.

The weaker version of the spring is on its way to remedy the situation.

It was the one that is missing on your movement... of course!

 

...and now for that dollar watch...

I was very excited to get the Westclox apart to find out just what kind of engineering a dollar could buy you all those many years ago. I was not disappointed. Despite its rather "dull" facade upon removing the case back, once the main plate was removed... well, they say pictures paint a thousand words so lets let one talk. Behold the basic simplicity of it all. Stamped sheet metal, riveted, plates.

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I had a good idea in my mind of what to expect but here are a few that I didn't. Those steel pins soldered into the pallet fork replace the entry an exit pallet jewels on a jeweled "swiss lever" watch.

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But here is the kicker... they've utilized two lantern pinions! One on the escape wheel and one on the seconds wheel. Show in the photo below, this is a technique I'm used to seeing used in American made wall clocks. Instead of cutting leaves (or teeth) into a steel rod to create the pinion, here they have used steel pins sticking out of what appears to be a zinc-plated cast hub to act as teeth. I would never have thought this would be easier and more cost effective than simply mass-producing a true pinion.

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What really did please me though is seeing just how good of condition all of the pivots and pivot "bushings" (in this case they are just holes drilled into the brass plates) are in. If I can get a mainspring to fit or reshape and temper the current one, I see no reason that this little gem will not be able to be revived.

 

I looked a bit further into the use of lantern pinions and then considered how they are manufactured. An offset drill on the headstock of a lathe and an index plate are all that is needed. Drilling is MUCH faster than it cutting the pinion leaves and prehardened pins can be cut and pressed in quicker than properly heat treating a pinion after it is manufactured. And there's the cost savings. I think Brian is probably on to something with it being a more tolerant design when it comes to errors in alignment.

Given that the watch is stamped as being "Made in Canada" here is a little something else I didn't expect to find (this is the back side of the dial)

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The back of the dial which isn’t visible unless the watch is taken apart is labeled as shown in my last post (it does specifically say “Dial Made In USA” in a couple of those marks).

The plate which covers the mainspring is marked “Made in Canada” where it is clearly visible when the case back is removed.

So no, the dial isn’t marked as being made in both places, but I found it interesting to see that Made In USA buried in it.

 

I’ve been doing some digging and I believe I’ve tracked the Westclox down to being a “Westclox Pocket Ben: Style 5 Plain Pocket Watch”. This style would have been produced between 1946 and 1960. Aside from that, the sources I can find all indicate that no serial number to manufacturing date correlation is know.