Race of Two Worlds Redux

I like that idea. Big fan of the originals 'Race of 2 Worlds'...

 

the 1957 Trophy >

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Mr Penske has that 1957 trophy at his new house in Indiana...

 

'Anybody have the actual total horsepower for each? On ovals, 'specially big and/or high banked ones, that's what's critical. 'Torque not so important goin' round and round flat out.
'Won't even get into differences in wheels/tires, brakes, allowable bodywork, etc., etc., etc.
As always, 'really an exercise in futility trying to compare apples and oranges.
Even the playing field? Then you're not comparing IndyCar to F1?.....the kit cars to the all out race cars?....are you?


Lastly, why? .......

But that would just be indoctrinating more for "a show" rather than real auto racing. That's happening fast enough without it (again, IndyCar, NASCAR, BoPing of sports car racing).

 

If F1 cars were allowed to develop appropriate oval aerodynamics, AND change the gear ratios for higher top speeds, F1 would annihilate Indy cars at any venue Indy cars would show up at.

 

Indy car 900 HP, F1 1,000 HP

But F1 is fuel flow limited, if this were removed, more HP is easily obtainable.

 

At ovals Formula 1 wouldn't have 1000 hp, as without breaking the electric power would only last for a lap. That would leave him with around 800, or even less as those engines were not designed to run at full revs for so long.

Anyway, I think that F1 would win overall, as Indy cars wouldn't have a chance at normal tracks while at ovals F1 could do something.

 

If I am not mistaken, you are refering to the "Monzapolis" races that took place in 57 and 58.
That was a single event each year, run only on Monza oval.

Where do you think that "reboot" should take place, since the oval at Monza is now derelict ?

 

The battery size is (IS) a limitation, but F1 engines can still pull a lot of electrical HP out of the turbo (MGU-H) and dump it straight into the MGU-K. In F1 races, there is a timing circuit that only allows for a certain amount of HP adder to be available on a lap-by-lap basis. Turning this circuit off would do a lot to put them back near 1,000 HP.

 

Yes, but as noted above, that wouldn´t be Formula 1 car anymore. Indy cars could make more power too with more boost and more downforce with different aero, etc... but that´s not the point. I think that the comparison is valid only if both cars run under their own regulations.

Although I suppose Formula 1 teams could develope a suspension and aero package for ovals that still would be within F1 regulations. The biggest problem could be tyres and horsepower.

 

So if it rains on an oval, the F1 cars run while the Indy cars sit in the garages ?

What kind of sense does that make?

Thus you simply cannot run each under their own sets of rules, you have to adjust some rules where you don't get another Indy 2005.

 

If F1 had ovals on the schedule, I guarantee they wouldn't run in the rain 'same as IndyCar.
Nonetheless, the concept is fruitless.
The last one, the Questor GP (real F5000 vs real F1) in '71 (Ontario Speedway, California, U.S.A.) wasn't too shabby, however. Look at them there ticket prices.....

http://8w.forix.com/questor.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZszMRLG3oSA

 

It would be more interesting to go Formula Libre...no rules...Indy car teams build the best car they can, F1 teams do the same. Three ovals, three road courses, the winner is the winner.

 

(A) 'Already had that (sorta)....our Can Am; your Interserie....back in the 60s and70s.
(B) 'Wouldn't be fair at all. No pro'lem for the F1 teams but the IndyCar teams? Yikes! They don't have designers and fabricators these days....just assemblers of their Dallara "kit" cars.

 

Can-Am had rules:: the car had to fit in a box (L*W*H) had to have 4 covered wheels, and a "passenger seat".

They went from 1700 pound cars with 500 HP to 1300 pound cars with 900 HP is ~3 years; and ended up with the Bruce and Denny show.

 

You mean the Porsche 917-30 show surely.

The technical freedom made CanAm one of the most exiting series of all time.

 

(A) 'Not edumacatin' me.......I lived it..... Image Unavailable, Please Login
Jes' fer starters, (B) 6 years, not 3 ('66-'71) for your development timeline; and (C) the Panzer Steamroller, not the Bruce and Denny Show.
I won't even touch your "regs." and #'s....

(edit: Mssr Wm. - 'started with the 917/10, Follmer's Championship in '72)

 

'Got me reminiscing...(whilst holed up...cabin fever...) Image Unavailable, Please Login

1972 Canadian-American Challenge Cup
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9.

1. George Follmer / USA Porsche 917/10 TC 130 - 20 8 20 20 +10 12 20 20
2. Denny Hulme / NZ McLaren M20 Chevrolet 65 20 + 20 10 + + 15 + +
3. Milt Minter / USA Porsche 917/10 65 10 12 6 12 /4/ 15 + 10 +
4. Mark Donohue / USA Porsche 917/10 TC 62 15 - - - - + 20 15 12
5. François Cevert / F McLaren M8F Chevrolet 59 - + 12 + 15 20 + 12 +
6. Peter Revson / USA McLaren M20 Chevrolet 48 +12 + 15 + + + 6 + 15
7. David Hobbs / GB Lola T310 Chevrolet 39 - 4 10 6 + + 8 3 8
8. Jackie Oliver / GB Shadow Mk3 Chevrolet 37 + + + 15 + 12 + + +10
9. Peter Gregg / USA Porsche 917/10 TC / 917/10 34 8 +8 0 + 12 ns - ns 6
10. Charlie Kemp / USA Lola T222 Chevrolet 27 2 10 + 8 0 + 1 6 +


1973 Canadian-American Challenge Cup
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8.

1. Mark Donohue / USA Porsche 917/30 TC 139 4 15 20 20 20 20 20 20
2. George Follmer / USA Porsche 917/10 TC 62 + 20 + 15 12 15 + +
3. Hurley Haywood / USA Porsche 917/10 TC 47 + 8 + 12 + ns 12 15
4. Charlie Kemp / USA Porsche 917/10 TC 45 20 ? 10 ns + 3 + 12
5. Bob Nagel / USA Lola T260 Chevrolet 44 12 6 + 0 6 4 6 10
6. Jody Scheckter / ZA Porsche 917/10 TC 39 + 12 12 + 15 + + +
7. David Hobbs / GB McLaren M20 Chevrolet 37 ? 10 15 + - 10 2 +
8. Scooter Patrick / USA McLaren M8F Chevrolet 31 10 + 1 + 10 6 3 +1
9. Jackie Oliver / GB Shadow DN-2 Chevrolet 30 + + +0 3 - 12 15 +
10. Steve Durst / USA Porsche 917/10 / McLaren M8F 29 8 4 4 1 - 8 +1 +3

 

The 917 came a few years later (70s) Bruce and Denny shows (M8B-through-M8D) were the late 1960s. Porsche entered afterwards and ended up with 917-K with 1500 HP still around 1300 pounds. This was the car that killed CanAm.
There is an interview with Peter Revson with a Porsche engineer, and the engineer ask how much HP do you need?
Revson: I want to be able to spin the tires at 150 MPH if that is what it takes to win.
CanAm was still healthy in the Bruce and Denny Show era.
It became intractable/unsustainable when Porsche started dominating.

 

It would have only taken a couple of years for the opposition to catch up.
Instead McLaren left to concentrate on F1.

 

I found that quote about CanAm that sums it up for me:

"Part of the charm of the original Can-Am was the explosion of creativity. Eight litre engines, ten inch wheels, movable wings. Nothing was too outrageous.
McLaren started to reduce the series to a science and Porsche finished it.
Not that this was a bad thing to do. McLaren’s and Porsche’s approach was very sensible and VERY successful. But it left the gonzo nature of the early days behind."

What happens inevitably is that if you give a lot of technical freedom to start with, the best solutions in different areas (engine, chassis, aero, tactics) soon show up, and everybody begins to adopts them. That means that the designs converge and the innovation goes out of the window; that's what happened to CanAm.

If McLaren had kept on, and adopted in their monocoque chassis some of the Turbo V8 Chevy Big Block that were developed, they would have soon be a match for the Porsche tubular spaceframe. But they needed to invest, and the series would have been less profitable for them, so they left to concentrate on F1 instead.

 

I was there. It was amazing. Andretti spotted Stewart a few seconds in each heat, then ran him down and beat him like a rented mule. Twice.

Of course there was much more to it, but the setup us vs. them scenario was never going to materialize.