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R12 to R134 for 365GT4 2+2

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by Choptop400, Dec 6, 2019.

  1. Choptop400

    Choptop400 Karting

    Oct 10, 2014
    85
    Huntington, NY
    Full Name:
    Frank L Caponi
    I am sure that there is a thread or two on this subject. I have the radiator out as well as most of the front apart. So I will be reinstalling everything and now realized that I have to take the aircon hoses off the condenser in order to reinstall correctly as well as detailing the area. So with that said (the while I am in there Gods have spoken) Wouldn't it make sense to look into converting the aircon system to R134 rather than recharging with R12 which might be difficult to do in NY. If anyone has some information or experience, I would like to hear from you or as I expect there probably is a thread about this on Ferrari Chat.

    Last thought it is a convertible! I have never used the aricon.
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    Thanks Frank
     
  2. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    321
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    I leave in France, so the airconditioning is just not as important as in other hot countries. My Car was converted to r416a and it worked wuite well. This gas is a blend of r134a with an additional 5% of butan/propane (do not remember which). This last bit of gas allows to properly crack the original oil of the R12 system. In other words, this gas is r134a compatible with whatever amount of R12 oil that is still in the system.

    I am in the process of rebuilding the whole system with pure r134a and had to remove all original hoses (damaged the fender in the process, spent 450€ on new custom made hoses), flush condenser and evaporator, replace the valve (found a R134a compatible one at summit racing ~$15), replace the filter drier (also found one at summit racing ~$20), also decided to replace the condenser with a thicker one from a truck (same area, new connectors, ridiculous price from china), add to the list a refurbishing kit for the compressor (summit racing again), last but not least a bottle of ester oil and connector sealant. I could not test the whole setup so far (engine is out), but at least everything fits together. Will update the forum once I have the possibility to confirm it works as intended...

    Here is my shopping list:
    FSS-33255 (filter dryer)
    FSS-38683 (expansion valve)
    FSS-24019 (york/aspera shaft seal kit) (not installed yet)
    FSS-24027 (york/aspera seal kit) (not installed yet)
    FSS-35845 (thermo cycle switch a.k.a Snow flake switch) : I did not purchase this one as mine works
    OTC-112422 (cork tape)
    VTA-331009 (O-RING WITH OIL KIT) (caution delivered with PAG oil better to use POE32)
    + some POE32 oil (ebay)
    + Nylog Gasket Thread Sealant (BLUE for new refrigerant(s), RED for R12) (ebay)

    I've mentioned the online shop where I sourced these from, as back then I could not find many US based sellers that were willing to ship overseas. No doubt anyone in the US can use another supplier and use cross references so as to identify the parts compatible with the four seasons references. Price-wise the US based sellers are extremely competitive, the total cost including express shipping to Europe ended up cheaper than buying locally the filter drier alone!

    Please note that I wish I had selected smaller hoses than the original ones (this was a suggestion from my supplier): it is such a tight fit in the fender that I managed to distort the body panel while inserting the hoses!
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,867
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    The original compressor and hoses don't have a chance of keeping R134 contained. Replacing it all will be expensive. I use R12 in R12 systems. Works better and costs less.
     
    willrace likes this.
  4. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    212
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    R12 is still available in the US, hard to find but it's out there. I would recommend finding R12 vs. doing a conversion if at all possible. There are also R12 alternatives that are environmentally friendly that I know work pretty well, I had a old Jeep Cherokee XJ I used it in that was R12. It's available on eBay and elsewhere.
     
  5. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,202
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    I get my R12 on ebay, usually from Mexico. If I do a conversion it will be to hydrocarbon fluid (propane/butane blend). It is compatible with the oil and gives more rather than less cooling vs. R134a.
    Ken
     
    willrace likes this.
  6. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    321
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Mine kept pressure from 2008 till 2014. The air-con specialist had changed the oil. He added some fluorescent stuff, and a few leaks apeared here and there, but not on the compreddor. York compressors are compatible with r134a for sure.
     
  7. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 23, 2007
    4,736
    North Pole AK
    Some info about switching to r134 is it's not as efficient as r12 and for the best performance you will need to upsize the condenser. Before I drove my car up to Alaska I had a week to look it over and get the AC working. Since the AC was not functioning I didn't know the status of the compressor. I got an adaptor bracket and installed a sanden style compressor. I didn't have time to up size the condenser or change the nozzle. The AC works ok but I'm sure it can be improved. I did this work in 2010 and it still works today.
     
  8. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    321
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    One also has to bear in mind that the evaporator of the single air-conditioning units is not that big and the fan does not blow a massive amount of air, so once the evaporator is almost frozen, there is not much room left for additional cooling. As said, on my car it worked. It was nowhere near what a GM from the 70s would deliver, but more or less in line with any European car of that era.

    Back then the argument in favour of R416a (and hydrocarbon gases) was that residues of the old oil could play havoc with the pure R134a. From what I've seen the expansion valve sensor is located on the bottom of the plumbing which can be a problem if the oil does not flow in the system and gets accumulated next to the sensor: the valve is likely to sense the temperature of the accumulated oil instead of the temperature of the refrigerant. so it may not realize that it is time to stop the compressor and let it suck "liquid" refrigerant instead of gas (big no-no). So Pure r134a can be a problem in the long run unless the system has been entirely flushed.

    Finally, my brother just replaced the stock compressor of his 400GT with a new York 210 compressor (the same as the one used in double evaporator air-conditioning units except for the metric nuts and bolts). This compressor is significantly more noisy than the stock one. That's probably due to the longer cylinder stroke. So even if a new compressor can be bought for $180 (http://techchoiceparts.com/inventory/117957-new-aftermarket-york-er210r-ac-compressor), I'd rather refurbish the stock compressor. By contrast if the car is fitted with a noisy York 210, the Sanden upgrade could make sense.

    Karl Rose made a nice post when he fixed his 308 : http://www.ferrari.cdyn.com/carl_rose_docs/
     
  9. Choptop400

    Choptop400 Karting

    Oct 10, 2014
    85
    Huntington, NY
    Full Name:
    Frank L Caponi
    Thanks for all the replies. Great insight and thoughts. I am stuck with having to take the lines off the condenser and letting the R12 escape (painful as not good for the environment). But I have the Ferrari in pieces in my home garage and cannot get someone to come to the house with one of the machine that can safety extract the gases.
    Frank
     
  10. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,275
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    There goes 800 square miles of ozone.....the good news is that hole ends up down over Australia so carry on :)
     
    rubenpadron likes this.
  11. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    321
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    R12 substitutes are not so environmental friendly either, these "shale gases" are obtained through hydraulic fracturing. In the end r134a is a bit of a lesser evil and if one does not have the fund for a complete retrofit, r416a does the job. I personally had an argument with my cousin when he decided to refill his leaky 412 with an old stock of R12 he had: the whole 2kg were gone in the atmosphere in less than 2 days! If, as Ferrari owners, we cannot afford to make our hobby a bit cleaner, how can we expect others to be environmental friendly?

    As a side note, one of the best fix for cabin temperature is to validate the air-ducts near the battery (and its sibling next to the master-vac) are in "perfect" conditions. Whenever these are loose or punctured, hot air from the manifolds just find its way directly into the cabin and makes the car really hot.
     
    rubenpadron likes this.
  12. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,202
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    Raemin, do you have any idea how R134a is made? Lithium and fluorine mines are not so pretty! Propane is so much more efficient.
    Ken
     
  13. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    321
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    "a bit of a lesser evil" seems a fairly reasonable way of describing the gas. Its nasty for the environment (and not legal any-more for new cars), but not as nasty as R12, and (yes) in most cases better than Propane (more on that later). My point is that if done properly (i.e recycle R12 then put new gas) I am comfortable with whatever gas one may put in the car, but let's be frank if the plan is to buy a few cans online and contaminate a system that is already full of R12, this is clearly not a safe bet in the long-run (most specialists will refuse to service a contaminated system) and it is illegal in most countries (read the Duracool caveats).

    As a matter of fact I would have happily refilled my car with propane if the local Duracool supplier (60km from my house) had been willing to perform the refill in a legal manner. They are only willing to sell cans. Shame on them.
     

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