Cool Lee! These cars were never considered quick by any measure, but getting any 4500 lb. car up & away is a feat in & of itself. Their 0-60mph times are respectable in that light. @ 140, they still ride like a tank...which leaves you feeling very confident. 80 feels like a crawl. Where their performance lies is in the 100-240 km/hr. zone, & moving tanks at that rate is very respectable. Friends have commented about how quiet they are (after they found out it was a Fcar they saw/heard), these were intended to be driven by men wearing suits. A Germain mechanic of mine calls these 'ladies cars' but we all know where their allegiance lies. From what I understand, there was a CA shop that sent requests through Luigi Chinetti's dealership (the only US one @ the beginning) for 365's to be supplied with an auto tranny option, the shop converted one & had it shipped to Maranello for Enzo to consider. I generally don't eat, smoke, or text while driving the 400 so the 5 speed seems to keep me a little more occupied, plus I like to be the one that determines when to shift. I've never been able to master the heel-toe method with an automatic set-up...that might be due to the lack of a clutch pedal. The sleeper aspect cool:) is what really attracted me to these, the Maserati Q-porte III's were nice too (but a little too squarish for my tastes) & the 5 speed in those where even rarer than the 400's. I really don't need that attention-getting business so these babies suit me just fine.
Well, Bruce and friends, at the risk of inadvertantly offending another someone, correction is needed. The 412 factory brochure in my hand records the curb weight of my 412 at 3979 lbs., that's with liquids and full tank. The factory brochure for my 575M Maranello lists its curb weight at 3815. So the weight difference between the two cars is one slender gentleman passenger weighing 164 lbs, fully clothed! I love both cars and acknowledge that they are very different. But I will assure you that they are very considerably less different than is the difference between an auto 412 and a 5-speed manual 412. 575M 515 hp 0-62mph (100kph) = 4.1 sec (I've heard one making 4 sec flat); 412GT 5-speed 340 hp 0-62mph = 6.7 sec (from the factory brochure!); 412 automatic 340 hp 0-60mph = 8.3 sec (factory brochure) The 5-speed's time is only a tick slower than my old, extremely nimble 2897 lb, 320hp 365GTC made it 0-62 = 6.5 sec. Reading this, being Ferrari tifosi, you ought to be able actually to 'feel' the difference. The 'feel' difference is enormous. Another indication of the difference: take both cars on the track; you can break the back end of the 5-speed loose, can't be done, or at least I've never heard of it being done in an automatic. The 412 5-speed drives like a Ferrari, a heavy Ferrari that is surely not as nimble as the 575 and far less so than the GTC (2,873 lbs). But the entire series, from 365 GT4 through the 412, has an (incorrect) bad rap as a slow, heavy, ponderous car because of the auto transmission. Forgive me if I've already posted this photo on this thread but below is a picture of my 412 on a - non-competitive - mountain road rally from the Saratoga Automobile Museum to Lake George. Two cars behind me was the pale yellow 275 NART Spider that Denise McCluggage drove to a class win in the 1967 Sebring 12 Hours, driven in this little event by - ta-ta! - Denise McCluggage. Her navigator was Francois Sicard who was the NART mechanic who tended the car at Sebring. At the luncheon that followed the rally Francois came to me and said something like - 'man, you were really pushing that big old 412, good going'. One can't do that in an automatic 400/412. They are simply two different cars. just my 2c. please forgive me, anyone who may be off-put. Image Unavailable, Please Login
All of this banter is making me question whether I should not sell my 400i 5 speed, but I do have a project that I want to move on so the 400i needs to go.
John, at some point the market is going to view these cars, all of them, auto and 5-speed, as collector cars like the 250 and 330 2+2'S, much moreso the 5-speeds. They are exceedingly well-made, bullet-proof if well-taken care of, drop-dead gorgeous, one of Pininfarina's most beautiful and successful designs, and the 5-speeds are plain fun to drive. Keep it if there is any way you can. just my 2c
Sometimes I feel like an amnesia victim when I read these 400/412 threads. I disagree with almost everything said here. I have an automatic 412- it's a friggin BLAST to drive. When I inquired about Seth's car a few years ago he told me that "It is impossible to drive an auto 412 in a spirited manner"- Nonsense. I drive the wheels off mine and I thoroughly enjoy the car. I love my 5 speeed 400i as well, but really the 412 is a wonderful car. I find both of my cars so much more nimble and edgy than ANYTHING of similar ilk from the period- and I have a showroom quality 560sec and have had the various 80's GTs in my garage- from 928's to Astons to 635csi's. The 400/412 blows the doors off any of them both for speed, comfort, build quality and driving fun. So Seth- I know you've been trying to sell your car for an above top of the market price for a few years now, but trying to blow up the 5 speed to something it isn't is just foolish. Nobody drive 412s on the track- not what they were built for. They were to drive TO the track where you race your mid engine Ferrari. Frankly given what these cars are the auto suits it perfectly. My 412 with a shift kit installed can spin the wheels in every gear and is really strong and quick- maybe not in the 0-20 MPH race but in every other gear it runs rings around anything from the era. As GT cars that are designed to cruise the continent in style and comfort the auto is a great choice. I ALWAYS grab the 412 keys over the 400i when I have to head into town and fight Boston traffic. Then I find a fund New England road on the way home and open up that magnificent V12! No car for sale- no axe to grind. These are great cars if you understand they are OLD cars designed to be a "sporty" alternative to Rolls Royce- NOT a competitors to Porsche 930s and Countach's. No point to compare them to modern cars- can't do it. They suck compared to modern cars. But as probably the last really rare Ferraris that have yet to hit the appreciation curve- they're really fun cars.
Aaww man, can't you just unload some other asset that just shows up on paper that only makes you smile when there's a gain?? Seth, the various models differ due to the addition of equipment or change in materials. The 400i Series 2 comes in at 4167#. Oh, & remember...for that car to get to the end of the finish line, there had to be a driver. I believe Ferrari uses the 75 kg figure for each of the 2 passengers plus 40# luggage for 'real' moving weight, go here & grab the OMs http://www.400register.com Are you sure about that?? I don't have 1st hand experience with the auto trannies in these but my guess is they could, knowing the V12 power that Colombo puts out (it's not huge but it's respectable)...plus I remember some others posting here about breaking their tires @shift points. But as Jay said, I'd think it could break 'em @other times as well. I do remember that photo...you're forgiven I don't think he's trying to 'blow' it up I don't think Francois would have said 'good going' if Seth was...it's probably a rare sight! He was just driving it in a...what do they call it...oh yeah, spirited. I have heard of & seen pictures of some tracking these so it's not like it never happens. Besides, these babies have a well established Colombo V12, a ZF trans & diff...other than the double wishbone suspension, isn't this what makes a Ferrari?? You are correct Jay stating that these were not 'intended' to be tracked but I would hope that each & every one of them had a handful of km's put on them @ Fiorano, there aren't whimped out components in these. You know what I'm thinking...it would be a 1st to install a top fuelie or jet engine in one of these & drag them. To quote you... It will always happen in automotive...it'll be a sad day if it doesn't.
My car with me in it and 3/4 tank of gas weighs 4150. I posted a question in the vintage section asking how much a Daytona weighs and if I remember correctly it was around 3850 ( if I have time I'll search for the actual thread and verify this). Considering our cars have 4 usable seats and a good size trunk that's really not that much difference. When people Give a weight for their cars I wonder how many have actually weighed them or if they are going off of the factory quoted number or some number published in a magazine?
The 1982 400i owner's manual states the "car curb weight" as 4,167 lbs/1,894 kg. Wikipedia says "curb weight" means the vehicle plus a tank of gas. A gallon of gas weighs about 6.5 lbs. 10 gallons weighs about 65 lbs, 20 = 130 lbs, and 30 = 195 lbs. Subtracting 195 from 4,167 equals 3,972. Adding a 175 lb driver gets you back up to 4,147 lbs, as the weight of a 400i with a driver and no gas.
To define curb wt. further, its the total weight of a vehicle in standard equipment trim with all the necessary operating consumables (oils of all types, coolant, brake fluid, PS fluid, washer fluid, and a full tank of fuel). I would think the homologation papers would be the most accurate, my understanding is these papers officially confirm the specs of the car to be recognized (a particular type of car or car component) as a production model or component rather than a prototype, making it eligible for a motor race. The figure I gave was from the 400i Series 2 OM pulled from the site I mentioned in my last post: http://www.400register.com The curb weights in the OM's for all the cars are: 365GT4: 3940# 400GT: 4189# (dry, not curb) Something seems to be a little off here. 400i S1: 4034# 400i S2: 4167# 412: 4155# They also have homologation papers as well. The H papers for your car shows a weight of 1860kg (4000#) but the OM shows a curb wt. of 3940# For some reason there's a weight difference of 60# between the 2. With the 400GT, there is a 22kg. weight difference between the 2 (H=1878kg, OM=1900kg/dry weight), the dry wt. figure in the OM is without consumables. Next question is what type of weight is used in the Homologation papers, dry or curb? If you add the weight of the 1/4 tank of fuel (to bring your car back up to curb wt.) to your 4150# measured from the scales (4200#) & subtract the curb listed in the H papers (4000#), then you weigh 200 lbs. How close is this? And if you reduce the wt. listed in the OM, then you weigh 260#. How far off is this?
Jay, what I said was that it is not possible to drive an auto 412 in the spirited manner a Ferrari is meant to be driven And the car has been on offer for just about a year. I've no interest in touting it for what it is not. My thoughts as to value relate to the rarity of the 412GT 5-speed, just 115 units produced world-wide, not homologated for U.S due to need to crash test cars for U.S. import, so all 412s in the U.S. are federalized gray market cars, probably not more than 20-30 units in the States. Assuredly the entire series 365/400/400i/412 was not built for the track yet back in the mid-1990s an acquaintance of mine regularly tracked his 5-speed 400i in the FCA Mid-Atlantic Region and spent an AWFUL lot of money on rubber. That said, I thought he was crazy for you're quite right, they were not meant for the track. You're also right, they are all magnificent cars and incredibly good buys today; I don't think they will remain so for too long.
Are you sure about that The 412 is actually the only model that strayed away from the 2/3's auto, 1/3 5-speed proportions. I believe the published figures are 226 Automatics (incl. 55 RHD) & 303 GT (incl. 75 RHD) versions for a total production of 529 cars.
Bruce, I'm trying to recall from where I rembmer those numbers. I'm really quite certain about the total productionm number of 576 412s but now that you question, less so about the ratio. I've put in a call to Chad Ensz, the Editor of Ferrari Market Letter, an acknowledged reliable guardian of Ferrari information, since I certainly don't want to be putting out inaccurate information to a potential buyer. Thanks for raising the question.
Here's some production numbers.... 365 Production started: 1972. Production ended: 1976. Total production: 528, 133 RHD. 400 GT - Five-speed and Automatic Production started: 1976. Production ended: 1979. Total production: 501, 354 auto; 164 RHD, 137 auto. First serial number: 19353 (auto), 20789 (?) (five-speed). 400i - Five-speed and Automatic Production started: 1978. Production ended: 1984. Total production: 1,294, 873 auto; 180 RHD, 152 auto. 412 - Five-speed and Automatic Production started: 1985. Production ended: 1991. Total production: 576, 306 auto; 85 RHD, 61 auto.
Seth, I believe I found some info from the honorable Sir John Ashman: 412 - Five-speed and Automatic Production started: 1985. Production ended: 1991. Total production: 576, 306 auto, 270 5 Sp; 85 RHD, 61 auto, 24 5 Sp. First serial number: 58629(?). Last serial number: 87945(?). From John Ashman: Ferrari Market Letter says that the last 412 was s/n 82001 Cavallino magazine says that the last s/n was 82153. 270 5 speeds made in the series out of total production of 576 cars.
Interesting as 400s manuals are ratio 1:3 with autos but us Rhd owners are in the minority of 1:6 ratio ! Of 28 Rhd 400i 5 spd produced anyone got an educated guess of how many would be left? Baring in mind the relatively high numbers of cars that got chopped!
Rob and Bruce, With the greatest respect to you both and to Sir John, I disbelieve your figures. Both factory 412 brochures, one the thin double folder, the other the more elaborate, expensively turned-out multi-page (with a facsimile of Enzo's signature in his signature purple ink!) that I have in my hand, read: "3-speed GM automatic gearbox, operated by a central floor lever; on request 5-speed synchromesh mechanic gearbox." The French version: "Boite automatique GM a 3 vitesses commande par levier central; a demande, boite mecanique a 5 vitesses synchronisees." The 412 was never homologated for the U.S. due to uneconomical cost of crash-testing for such a small production run. In Europe and elsewhere, the market at which this car was principally aimed was industrialists and wealthy individuals as an autostrada/autoroute/ autobahn high speed cruiser. The 5-speed manual had to be special ordered. I don't believe anything like a third of the production was special-ordered. But I will find out! I've put in a call to Brian Milleman at Ferrari North America to inquire. If he will, or can, answer. The really bad thing about this thread is that it has made me reconsider whether I want to sell my car. :-(
P.S. Further to my disbelief about 412GT 5-speed production numbers: from the 1987 Road & Track report on the 412: The automatic transmission adoption rate on the 400i was "more than 85%. Indeed on the 412 it's the automatic transmission that's considered standard equipment; you can have the 5-speed instead, but you've got to request it."
There are differences in the numbers of 5 speeds as reported by Cavallino, FML and the Ferrari 412 book but they are very minor and no more than 1 or 2 numbers off. I'd say that they are pretty much on the money. My 400i 5 speed is one of 82 5 speeds produced in 1983.
totally unscientific test obseravtion here, there are 14 412 for sale in Europe & UK via autoscout and pistonheads. (im sure there are more..) anyway 9 are autos and 5 manuals.
Seth, that's a good thing unless you're tired of it The mid-Seventies to the mid-Eighties vintage cars were considered contemporary but are hardly that in today's terms...they still have a contemporary look to them though. My understanding is that all the 400 variants were supplied with auto trans. unless ordered with the in-house 5 sp. & I always wondered why the 412 had the higher 5 sp. #'s. I'd/we'd like to make note of the #'s from each of your sources if you could provide, please! That's right in line with the per annum made to make up the 400+ in 5 yrs. in production.
