Hi! I have always Reaaly liked the 400. Can someone explain the difference between the 365 all the way to the 412. Are these cars considered vintage yet? Also, what is the cost of ownership I.e maintenance etc. Do you think these cars will a appreciate significantly in value? I think they are just gorgeous.
Well a multipage essay would be required to really cover this. If you're serious I would spend a week or more reading thru this forum. There is also a book that covers the front engine v12 cars (sorry I'm not at home to look at the title). Here are some of my opinions! I think this car is a transitory model. It started with weber carbs and knock off wheels and ended with fuel injection, auto trans and anti lock brakes. Now here is where people might not agree with me but here goes. I think of the 365 as being almost a vintage car. It has features of the older Ferrari v12 cars. The three tail lights knock off wheels and carbs. It also has the older style interior which the early 400s also had. I think for me this is the closest I can afford to a vintage v12 Ferrari. As far as the value of these cars go who knows? They are not too expensive to buy but most of the cars have various issues, deferred maintenance, questionable repairs etc. I will also add that at least for me if I could not do a lot of the work on the car it would be prohibitively expensive to maintain. I can almost promise you that if you get one of these cars you will be upside down from a financial point. As far as driving goes, what are you looking for? If you are expecting new car performance look somewhere else. If you are looking for amazing sounds and a unique experience than this is a good place to start. To give you an idea of performance of my 365 I had a 92 5.0 Mustang LX. The Ferrari is about as fast as Mustang. A couple of last thoughts. There are very few of these cars in the US. I have read numbers like 17 365s, 3 400 carb with manual and 35 400i with manual transmission. Also parts can be expensive or next to impossible to find. Believe me if I can ever find a set of synchros I'll by two. Take some time to do a lot of research before you get too far along.
AK Jim pretty much sums it up - these cars can be financial suicide in pretty much all areas but if you are one of the few who love this series of cars it won't stop you eventually buying one, it's a bit like a salmon returning to where it was born to spawn - something you just have to do. As long as I can remember I've loved this car and eventually bought a 1978 Auto with carbs about a year ago. I looked at a few cars (all injected) but they either turned out to be in need of too much work or just weren't quite right for me for various reasons. Eventually I found a beautiful rust free, low mileage and well loved carbed car which I couldn't refuse. It's been 100% reliable since then with minimal expense to date BUT the starter motor has now failed (I knew it was weak when bought). Apparently its is bit of a saga to change for a home mechanic without a lift so currently she's of the road until I can either afford to pay for it to be changed or borrow a ramp and give it a go myself. Whatever you do, if you buy get the car checked over to ensure its rust free, undamaged or molested and mechanically sound. Buy the best car you can find and whatever happens DON'T be tempted to buy a car that's a few thousand less but has more work to do as ultimately it will cost WAY more than buying the better car. Decide if you want carbs or injection because the driving and ownership experience is very different and also be prepared to pay more and search longer for a manual car as these are way rarer - I wanted a manual and am now considering buying a second one (you see what happens ? - these cars rapidly become an obsession) I feel I was very lucky because I bought a great car at a ridiculously low price (genuine bargains do exist) so take your time, kiss some frogs and eventually a princess will appear - although she probably has acne and bad breath that you won't find out about until you're ready to kiss her 3 weeks after you get together. Whatever you buy will be a love/hate affair so make sure you put money aside for both pampering the one you love and divorcing the one you hate!
The Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_400, which I have been updating, summarizes the main changes across the series. Aidan
Alex, The cars look great in person. They are cheap to buy. They are MUCH heavier feeling than your 330GTC and are MUCH more complex (read much harder/more expensive to maintain). Thay are all old enough to have age related issues (rubber bits need replacing, plastic bits need replacing, etc.). Regards, Art S.
A QV500 source that's no longer available on the web, I captured this a few yrs. ago Read as many threads in this section as you can. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I'll add a few comments based upon my experience having driven at least one example of every series, and currently owning a 400i Series II 5 speed and 412 auto. A well serviced and maintained 400/412 will be a completely reliable vehicle that can be used as an actual car. I take mine out to dinner and park it at the movie Theater all the time. It has great heat on the Winter and excellent A/C in the summer. The interior is luxurious and super comfortable and it has a large trunk that can hold a reasonable amount of gear. They are fast and comfortable on the highway. 100+ MPH cruising is no problem for these cars. I find that almost 100% of the comments that I see that are negative about the cars are based upon the word of someone who has never owned one, and probably never driven a well maintained, well setup car. First of all the 365GT4 has a bit more of the Ferrari character due to the sound and feel of the carbs. I've driven a few and they're really great sounding cars. However, carbs require a certain amount of patience to live with, both from a tuning/performance standpoint but MOST importantly the constant fuel aroma. My wife makes me park my 308GT4 outside our garage. When we test drove a 365GT4 in LA 4 or 5 years ago we both got a little bit dizzy from the fuel smell of that particular car. If you want old school, that's the car for you. A correctly tuned 400 starts first turn of the key, settles into a nice idle and pulls hard....HARD all the way to redline. I have a wonderful Timevalve SS exhaust on my 400 and the car sounds incredible. Sewing Machine smooth but with lots of grunt. Lots of little things on these cars go wrong at this age- Series II cars have solenoids to pop the hood and trunk, in most cases you wind up pulling the manual releases. The 412 does feel a bit stronger and I find the interior of the car and the exterior changes make the car seem more elegant. I've received nothing but positive comments about the cars. They turn heads but NOWHERE near the looks I get with my 355 or 308GT4 or even any of my 911s... To most people they look like mid 80s GM products. The most important thing is these cars EAT front ends- If the bushings are not crisp and fresh the cars tend to wallow and tramline a bit. Even with a fresh front end rebuild they never feel really nimble, but they do handle well and the driving experience is wonderful. TRX's are expensive and NOT really good modern tires. I run 16" wheels on the 412 so I can run Goodyear Eagles. Night and day performance difference. You really have not experienced what these cars can do until you've put some good rubber on them. Values have been stagnant for a decade now. I remember looking at a 330GT 2+2 in the 90s. Series one with the ugly four headlights. The car was metallic green with tan interior and in good shape with a tick over 40K on the clock. The seller was a local repair shop who had just done the valves and put a new exhaust on the car. They wanted $29K. I offered $25K, which they accepted. I had another shop do a PPI and found some of the brake hardlines were severely corroded. I wanted them to replace the brake lines for free, they offered to charge me a extra $500. I passed. My reasoning was the Series 1 cars would "Never be worth more than $25K..." The same car today is easily a $100K car. Do remember... these are Ferraris. One day someone will value them more than we do right now...one day.
Is the 365 GT4 2+2/400/412 "vintage"? Yes and no. The "no" part has to do with the straight-edge, creased corners styling. In 1973 this was avant garde. But unfortunately, not only does this aesthetic choice draw a bright line between this series and all its undeniably "vintage" predecessors, it is also the case that Ferrari itself abandoned the fad and reverted to more curvaceous shapes for all its subsequent models. So this series sits on an island in that respect, accompanied only by the '73-'80 308 GT4. The "yes" part has to do with everything else about the car which, other than its ponderous weight, it shares with nearly every other classic Ferrari. Tube frame chassis, based on twin oval section tubes: check. 60 degree V-12 aluminum overhead cam engine: check. Double wishbone suspension with coil-overs, independent in the rear: check. Beautifully hand stitched leather upholstery everywhere you look: check. Coach built body with leaded seams: check. The "vintage" question should also take into account the induction system and the transmission. The Bosch K-Jetronic system that was introduced with the 400i takes that model, and the 412, out of the vintage category. Likewise the automatic transmission. Without a clutch and a stick, imho it's not a vintage Ferrari. Regarding the ownership experience, I can only speak to my impressions of the needy '83 400i automatic that I bought in February 2012, and that I have actually only had in my grimy paws since June. The first impression is the ponderous weight. Advertised curb weight is a little under 4,200 lbs. A 175-200 lb driver, a similar sized passenger, and 30 gallons of gas will bump you up to 4,700 lbs! That much weight is just not a fair fight for a 4.8 liter (293 cubic inch) engine making about 300 lb-ft of torque, with that feeble number not coming until at least 3500 rpm. You can mat the throttle whenever you want, particularly from a standing start, and do a three count while you wait for the boys in the engine room to throw a few more shovels of coal in the boiler. But then comes the owner's second impression: that once the revs build, to 4,000 and above, that glorious Ferrari V-12 sound takes over and there's a distinct feeling of the motor getting on the cam. You feel a (very gentle) hand pushing you into your seat as the engine picks up speed. With the throttle wide open and the shifter in Drive, my car often produces a chirp on the 1-to-2 shift, accompanied by a sharper push into the seat. I also often find myself using the shift lever to hold the car in gear, to keep the revs in that magic range of 5,000 and above. The bottom line is that the engine is the car. With the driveability of the fuel injection, and the mismatch of power to weight, I can floor it whenever I want and it pulls without hiccup or hesitation to 6,500-7,000. It may not be a 250 SWB or a 365 GTB/4, but above 5,000 rpm on a straight road I'll wager there's not a lot of difference in the driving experience. Speaking of motoring along at 5,000 rpm, this is another distinctive quality of the automatic cars. With a 1:1 top gear and a 3.4:1 final drive ratio, on the freeway it always feels like the car needs another gear, like you're waiting for the automatic to shift into an overdrive fourth. You get used to it, and of course the car will cruise happily at 5,000 rpm all day long. But after decades of overdrive transmissions, it's a throwback to the muscle cars of the '60's in this respect. The owner's third impression is of the vehicle dynamics. Starting with the bad news, the brakes are barely adequate. It's my understanding that these calipers and pads are the same as BMW used on its 2,000 lbs lighter 2002 model. Also, the leverage provided by large diameter modern rotors is missing. I don't know if the brakes fade in frequent, hard use, but under any circumstances they encourage you to leave a large gap to the car in front of you. The ride, however, is perfect for a luxury tourer. At high speed it wafts down the road, but without any part of the floatiness of the similarly smooth Detroit products of the '60's and '70's. It goes around on-ramps and down twisty country roads quickly and securely, and more than fast enough to have your wife grabbing for the door handle and giving you "the look." The fourth impression is of the hand-crafted quality of the build. The leaded body seams, the deep, orange-peel free original paint, the hand-stitched leather interior, the forged aluminum control arms, the Koni coil-overs, the finned die cast engine oil sump and differential case, the hand-welded tubular frame, the four cam V-12 engine: they do not build them like this any more. One bragging point, in fact, is that Ferrari used double overhead cam heads on only three other 60 degree V-12 production models: the 275 GTB/4, the 365 GTB/4 Daytona, and the 365 GTC/4. The first two are of course iconic models, and the 365 GTC/4 is getting up there in prestige and price. The only other members of this exclusive club are the 365 GT4 2+2, the 400, and the 412. Speaking of price, this is of course the trump card of this series of Ferraris. You get much of the Ferrari-ness of a 275 GTB, at a hundredth of the price. As others have advised, the wise move is to find a solid rehabbed car in the $35K-$45K range, have it PPI'ed, and most of all be prepared to walk away from the chicken coops and to wait 12 months or longer for a good one to come along. This last sentence is of course the opposite of what I did, which is another reason why my screen name is 180 out. But I am not sorry, either. It's just a different ownership experience, one which pretty much X-es out your Sunday afternoons on an open-ended basis. On the other hand, with gas at $4.80 per gallon the driveway's not a bad place to be on a Sunday.
330GTC, you've gotten a pretty good education here below on one of the greatest lines of Ferraris - and the most under-appreciated - ever produced by the Company. I acquired my first Ferrari from Chinetti International, a car that Luigi Sr himself imported from Switzerland. It was laid down as a 330GTC, then furnished with a Typ 245 4.4 liter engine on order of Enzo Ferrari, for his friend Leopoldo Pirelli, Chairman and CEO of Pirelli S.p.A.; it was in fact the prototype 365GTC and I owned and enjoyed it for almost 30 years. I sold it at David Gooding's Pebble Beach auction in 2007 and to avoid being Ferrari-less, a few months before the sale was fortunate enough to find and buy a 412GT 5-speed that was, and still is, in superb mechanical and cosmetic condition, a multi-platinum award winner at Ferrari Club of America National Concours and a best 2+2 -in-show platinum award at Cavallino Classic. I will post a few photos below that you and others on the thread may have seen on F-chat, and if so please forgive. These were taken on a road rally from the Saratoga Automobile Museum to the Lake George Club during the Museum's Fall Ferrari Festival a couple of years ago. The production numbers I have seen for the 412 are 576 units of which 80% were the GM automatic transmission cars (do NOT buy under any circumstances as they are simply no fun to drive, good for only cruising on an interstate - 15 years ago I bought a 400i auto and sold it within a month), thus only 115 5-speed 412s worldwide and since they were not homologated for the U.S. likely not more than 20-25 5-speeds in U.S. You may have lucked out as I have determined to sell my 412 since I have, almost by accident, acquired too many cars for a single person with a two-car garage! I may email you privately. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
P.S. fullgarage is quite correct; properly serviced throughout their lives and not abused, these cars are virtually bullet-proof. A year ago my sister-in-law visited me in Saratoga Springs with her 40-year-old son and 8-year-old grandson. I must drive with the seat fully back but Lydia moved her front passenger seat forward a bit, her son sat behind her, my grand-nephew sat comfortably behind me and we used the car routinely to tour the City and surrounds, visit the Museums and take our meals, the whole time in the 412.
Thanks for that Seth, you just managed to insult all of us poor, humble auto driving fools who were stupid enough to buy the wrong car. There are many polite ways of making a point, couldn't you have tried harder to find one ? Regards, Russ (a stupid, stupid person)
Russ, I truly owe you and others on this thread an apology and you have my sincere apology. I intended no slight and certainly not any suggestion of stupidity. The stupidity was mine for my thoughtlessness. What I ought to have said, if anything, about the 365/400/400i/412 automatic vs. manual 5-speed question was that they offer different driving experiences which in fact they do. There are some Ferrari folks who will tell you to avoid the 575 Maranello F1 but rather to find a 6-speed manual 575 because the F1 lacks the feel, the fun and the sense of accomplishment of mastering the exceptional Ferrari manual transmission. All of that said, once again my apologies to you, Russ, and all others who took offense.
No apology needed - all is forgiven (Damn - and I just set fire to my car in disgust a mere 30 mins ago !)
oh sh-t! I was trying so hard to craft a suitable expression of regret and took so long that now you've gone and blown up your beloved Ferrari? Not acceptable. A burden I can't stand. Does it mean I now have to follow suit? double m-rde!
No, send it to me instead - I always wanted a manual and finally found a way to trick someone into giving me one for nothing !!
Oh, now that's funny Gotta add that I don't have the same misfortune but I remember when my wife was driving on her learner's permit, her father used to say "Why do you always have to speed up when you're driving around corners?" She still drives a stick to this day
To me, the 400i drives like a pickup truck with little ground clearance and power steering that vaguely seems like the pump belt slipped off....its a 30 year old car built with 40 year old technology. But it is a v12 Ferrari and that makes ownership a really unique experience...Lee
Lee; I hope you're not basing your analogy with today's PU's...I wouldn't want to take any PU truck 'of that era' into corners of any seriousness @ 100+ mph Duly noting your location, are you mainly driving your car in urban locales? Often you'll hear 308 & Boxer owners describing their steering as being stiff or heavy as well but that only occurs at slow speeds (to about 45-50 mph). Patrick Bedard hits the nail on the head in an article back in '82 describing a new Series 1 400i..."The power steering is relatively slow--Ferrari steering is always slow--and there is a noticeable dead zone on center, but it is absolutely free of all the twitches of path that seem to be a part of everybody else's power steering. You really have to swing the 400i's wheel into the fast bends, but you find the process somehow ends up being done with uncommon accuracy." I have found this to be spot on. Couple that with the stiff suspension, all road surface anomalies are translated to the driver. What more could you want out of a 2+2? Maybe your PS pump might need some looking into, belt tension good? Have you changed your PS fluid & clean the screen recently? Bruce
Bruce, I'm joking--the PS works fine. But the whole of the car is stiff and heavy, nobody would ever describe the car as 'nimble' and I find myself dreaming of a 914 Porsche sometimes...suspension is stiff, acceleration off the line (with the Auto, at least) is slow, and the steering is heavy--all those the same characteristics I had with my 308 years ago. The difference between that red 308 and my grigio 400i is the sense that I'm wearing church clothes--everything about it is civilized. I cannot imagine this car with a 5-speed, my guess is that an automatic is just more right for this car than a clutch would ever be (and I had 2 decades in a 928 where I'd swear just the opposite). The spit and tumble of the flat-crank and webers on the 308 was pure music--and could be the sound deadening and crossover exhaust I have in the 400i, but the 400i is so much quieter and sedate a rumble that the only real assurance I get is that I still set off some burglar alarms in the parking garage. The only people who would like this car are guys like us, who don't mind that our car doesn't get stares from everyone, or attracts kids in winged Hondas begging for a race, or the constant 'how fast does it go/how much does it cost..." Its the sleeper of Ferrari, which thankfully made it affordable for me and a lot of fun to work on...Lee
Lee, it's nice to find someone who acknowledges the fact that the auto suits the 400series perfectly as an executive express and was far more popular than the manual for exactly that reason. True, the manuals are more rewarding to drive when "driving" is your aim but the autos are really enjoyable too - just in a different way. I agree with you 100% about the lazy nature if the car, it isn't a sports car and was never intended to be one which is precisely the reason why it is and always will be unique in the Ferrari line-up. I love my auto 400 and wouldn't change it for the world.
I always wanted a manual, still do and will get one one day - I won't sell the auto though - I'll have two and live happily ever after with 24 cylinders and a petrol tanker in my garden ....
