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PSA - Attention Carb Car owners ...Change your Fuel lines now!

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by samsaprunoff, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    2,988
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day All,

    I have not had any time to work on my car and as such it has been sitting covered in my garage. Over the last few weeks I smelled an odor that was similar to Varsol and for one reason or another I could not seem to find where it was. The smell was coming in the far front of my garage which did not contain any petro based chemicals. It was really odd. Anyway, last week it was getting worse and so having checked all throughout the front I decided that it had to be in the back where the cars, etc are. I moved a few cars around and found a nice little slick underneath the 365... a puddle about 2 feet in diameter in what looked like petrol mixed with gear oil. Since I was rushed I simply cleaned it up and decided I would investigate further this weekend... Firstly, when I stored my 365 I drained (or so I thought) the fuel tanks... and what I found this weekend was that the tanks sitill had a bit of fuel in them (perhaps 1/2 Litre)... and the fuel ate through the fuel line from the cross over pipe to the fuel filter. When I say "ate" I mean ate, as evidenced in the attached pictures. My plan was always to replace all the fuel lines, but decided to wait until I was working within the engine bay... little did I suspect that there was still a bit of fuel in the tanks and this fuel knackered my lines. So... if any of you have not yet replaced your fuel lines I would highly suggest you do so ASAP.

    Cheers,

    Sam

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  2. energy88

    energy88 F1 World Champ
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    Jan 21, 2012
    11,252
    Fredericksburg, VA & Sarasota, FL
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    John
    Probably an ethanol attack. I assume Canada uses ethanol in the gasoline supply?
     
  3. ONSilver

    ONSilver Karting

    May 26, 2008
    141
    Oakville, Ontario
    So glad you caught the leak before anything worse happened! I had changed my 412 fuel lines a couple of years ago with SRI hoses for peace of mind.

    As a reference and guide to ethanol - free gasoline in Canada and the US, you may find this a useful source - https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=ON

    I try to stick to Shell V Power 91 which has no ethanol.
     
  4. D.J

    D.J Karting

    Mar 17, 2015
    71
    Perth WA
    Doing all mine after a lay up , is blinking hard to get to the main supply T under the windshield tho. :D
     
  5. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
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    Jun 10, 2010
    444
    Sainte Colombe, France (near Lyon)
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    Jean-Michel Savary
    Thanks Sam for raising this critical point.

    In Europe the official specifications have recently changed even for the SP98 which under its new name (SP98 E5) can potentially contain up to 5% ethanol. I contacted one supplier (Total) on that subject, the answer was that normally there should be no ethanol in their SP98 E5, but of course there could be up to 5%!

    It is obviously very tricky to control the level of ethanol at the pump before committing to fill up the car :)
     
  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,834
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    Most of our oil companies say a maximum of 10% but have been measured at nearly double that.
     
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  7. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    320
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Once factoring for taxes Ethanol is worth 0.75€/l while petroleum is 1.5€/l... No doubt our gas has the maximum (legal) amount of the cheap stuff!

    This being said Ethanol has quite a few advantages and modifying our cars for a better ethanol compatibility would be a real bonus (if it were not for the huge amount of rubber bits to replace in the whole system). Modifying carbs for Ethanol is "easy", but are there any successful experiences with K-jets? The seals are supposedly incompatible with Ethanol. It is strange that no one ever made a refurbishing kit.
     
  8. Schumi

    Schumi Formula Junior
    Owner

    Jun 5, 2002
    690
    Missouri
    Full Name:
    Daren
    In Missouri our QuikTrips sell a no ethanol gasoline. It is expensive though. That is what I have ran in my car for years and it does run better (in my mind anyway).
     
  9. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
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    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day John,

    Indeed... Ethanol certainly does wonders :( ... On this side of the border there are few options for non Ethanol tainted fuel. However, my 365 has been extremely inexpensive to refeul, as I have yet to drive it :) and so whatever fuel was left in the tanks was from way back when. That being said I am shocked at how aggressive the Ethanol was on the fuel line.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  10. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    2,988
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day ONSilver,

    Yes, I am very relieved...I am so glad that I chose to remove as much fuel as I did, as it is obvious that what fuel was there was very aggressive at eating up the fuel lines. Had there been more fuel the likely hood of a fire, etc would have been much higher.

    As for Ethanol free fuel... Here in AB the only fuel is what you recommended (Shell V Power 91). I only use it my BB and if I am forced to use a different fuel blend, then I only fill a small amount until I find a Shell Station.

    Thanks so much for the Fuel link! That is great info and allows me some flexibility on where to fill up.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  11. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    2,988
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day D.J.

    All my fuel lines in the engine bay were as hard as porcelain and so I planned on replacing all of the fuel lines, including the cross over and filler neck hoses. Sadly, I have not had a chance to work on my car's mechanicals and so I have not yet replaced these hoses. Now that all of the fuel is certainly drained, I can rest a bit easier.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  12. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    2,988
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Jean-Michel,

    You are most welcome!

    What I find interesting is that most of the fuel hose available in our typical auto supply places are non Ethanol rated. One would think that only Ethanol rated hose would be what is generally stocked and recommended... which is not the case. In fact finding Ethanol rated fuel hose is not as simple as one would think and only a few local suppliers have it on hand. It actually scary to think a lot of older cars are ticking fuel bombs as most backyard mechanics will probably not focus on the severity of this issue.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  13. rubenpadron

    rubenpadron Formula Junior
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    Oct 22, 2013
    945
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Full Name:
    Ruben
    Wow Sam! Question for you: you mentioned in the title the PSA was for carb owners... perhaps an ignorant question, but wouldn’t injected cars also suffer from this?

    Thanks!

    Ruben
     
  14. ONSilver

    ONSilver Karting

    May 26, 2008
    141
    Oakville, Ontario
    My pleasure, Sam. Glad if may be useful to you, and others. As Reuben noted, my thought is that this would also apply to injection powered cars as well. As you said, better to be safe than otherwise. Cheers, Oliver
     
  15. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    320
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    The seals and o-rings used in the kjet distributor are (reportedly) extremely sensitive to Ethanol. No idea regarding the warm-up regulators. We've got to bear in mind that kjet pressure is quite high compared to carbs, so unless the k-jet were refurbished with proper seals, ethanol is risky.

    That's sad, as adjusting the mixture for Ethanol would be quite easy, or at least easier than with carb cars that do require to enlarge the diameter of the jets in order to enrich at full throttle.

    With a bit of luck Ferrari400parts refurbishing kits are ethanol compliant. Just waiting for their confirmation.
     
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  16. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    2,988
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Ruben,

    Indeed, it could be a concern for our Injected brothers too. Interestingly, so far I found that Fuel injection hose is rated for up to 10% Ethanol. Now to clarify... I am unsure if this rating is for all fuel injection rated hose manufacturers and/or if this Ethanol compatibility was present in fuel injection hoses in the late 70's and onwards? It would be prudent to check... and also to try and use non Ethanol laced Fuel whenever possible.

    What I find amazing is that it looks as if the Ethanol actually broke down my fuel hose into its constituent elements, as the puddle was not simply fuel but a slurry of fuel and an oily residue. At first I thought it was fuel mixed with some leaked gear oil, but looking underneath my car and around this area there are no oil or gear oil leaks anywhere. Consequently, the "oil" component of this slurry had to come from the hose itself. Further evidence of this is the remaining hose pieces. Here if one touches the hose pieces they breakdown into a gelatinous blob and a black oily residue results. Anyway, I am very thankful that nothing tragic came of it!

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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  17. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    320
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Well it seems the distributor membrane is not compatible with ethanol. Salvox are selling some refurbishing kits marketed as compatible with ethanol, here is what they say about the k-jet : "A lot of the Diaphragms are starting to fail now, due mainly to the introduction of Ethanol & other additives into fuel..."

    As we have no more supply for ethanol free fuel, I guess this upgrade will be on my (somewhat huge) ToDo list!
     
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  18. larryg

    larryg Karting

    Jun 30, 2004
    229
    Louisville, KY
    Full Name:
    Larryg
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  19. Temerian

    Temerian Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 17, 2014
    144
    Manhattan
    Full Name:
    Rick Temerian
    Larry, what is the spec. for the replacement fuel line you used? I think I want to do the same while I have the engine out and the car up on the lift.
    Thanks.
     
  20. larryg

    larryg Karting

    Jun 30, 2004
    229
    Louisville, KY
    Full Name:
    Larryg
    I bought a 25' roll of fuel line off of Amazon. Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
     
  21. James lafevers

    Apr 6, 2019
    11
    Full Name:
    Pitviper
    A few years back I took my Maserati biturb out of storage and had it idling in the driveway when flames started coming from the engine compartment. By the time I got the fire out the car was a total loss. Holes in fuel line, thanks to Illinois ethanol requirements
     
  22. Tojo

    Tojo Formula Junior

    Apr 12, 2002
    337
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Tim
    Just for my clarification, as I'm about to run my new fuel hose in the car, and the previous owner of the car removed all the old hose, does this hose run from the pumps through the chassis rail with the brake lines to the front of the car? or is it routed differently? Thanks!
     

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