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488 Pista Alignment Video at Manthey Racing

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by Chicko, Apr 4, 2020.

  1. exoticcardreamer

    exoticcardreamer Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2014
    994
    usa
    Full Name:
    doesitmatter
    One of my friends just bought a 600 LT a few months ago. He raced porsche's for 14 years. He has had a hard time understanding or believing that any car can be better then Porsche's on track. (he hasn't tracked the 600 LT as he says he is retried from tracking). This is a common theme among people who are porsche centric.

    Here's a couple of videos for you.

    First one is a Pista chasing a 720s at Buttonwillow. The owner was sitting as a passenger in this video. He subsequently went below 1:50 himself in 13cw configuration (no street car porsche has gone below 1:50 in this configuration). The only 4 street cars on street tires that have gone below 1:50 is Viper ACR (closed course and factory driver trying to set the lap record), 720s, 600 LT and Pista.

    This is the owner's instagram when he mentioned his lap time below 1:50
    https://www.instagram.com/p/B9M5oyNpPvr/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link


    Video of Pista chasing 720s at Buttonwillow




    Video of head to head Mclaren 12 C (track record of 12c) and .2 gt3rs (track record of gt3rs) at Laguna Seca (I'll spare you the suspense and 12c was 3 seconds faster).

     
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  3. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2011
    6,119
    East
    I believe there is a personal connection to certain cars. I have always felt like I could make any 911 do whatever I wanted from the moment I got behind the wheel. A sense of familiairty always. For me its never taken much to get accustomed to any 911. Perhaps others have the same feeling and it is this feeling that provides the perception of better or faster. Today, after 4 or 5 months I took my Pista out for a very spirited drive. It is fast, very fast. There is no doubt that it will leave the GT3 in the dust, however I can make the Gt3 sing - it never feels out of control and maybe that's because its not nearly as powerful.
     
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  4. mdrums

    mdrums Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2006
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    THANKS everyone for the insight thoughts in the reply’s. This type of posting is much more fun to discuss that most others for me at least...good stuff.
     
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  5. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    3,683
    Australia
    #29 Shadowfax, Apr 8, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
    For sure. I think nowadays with cars becoming so ballistic i've come to the conclusion some things really aren't all that essential to make a car spectacular to drive. 700hp is fun but not necessary. It can even become counterproductive when you can't extract the upper limits of the engine for long enough which happens a lot in cars with such massive power. Sound and vibration also plays a crucial part in the overall sensation equation as does having an organic, pure, precise feel to (all) the controls. For a car to be a true sum of its parts all of these elements need to be in perfect symphony with one another. While some brands get closer to providing that "perfect situation" better than others, for me it is clear there is no substitute at this stage. I wish there was and, there should be, and some have got very close, but i'm still waiting unfortunately. The Gt3rs.2 remains to be a solid benchmark in this area and has less power than the lot of them. I would love for the engineers in Weissach to get their hands on a Pista and get it fully sorted out. That would be truly amazing. Hopefully Manthey takes the car on as a full blown project too.
     
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  6. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    3,683
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    #30 Shadowfax, Apr 9, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
    This vid helps explains the latest Porsche gt shifts vs the Ferrari's shifts, the noise and the elements are another thing altogether ;). I find the 2rs very much along the same vein as the 3rs just with more power/thrust and a change in engine note. The 3rs.2 is really all you need power wise and you'd be hard pressed getting a car to deliver the same levels of driver sensation. It's the combination of elements working together which ultimately determines whether the engineers have done a great job or spectacular job.

    Watch 11.oo on.. This guy explains a few things which I can certainly relate to from my own experience with the Porsche and Ferrari. Also watch from 4.40 on where he compares the V12 Ferrari sound. This is exactly what these types of cars is ALL about!

     
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  8. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    6,044
    Bournemouth, UK
    It seems that familiarity is the factor that skews perception. For example, Porsches are sometimes unnecessarily stiff, to the detriment of lap times, yet some people think that this is what a "race car" is supposed to be like.
     
  9. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    3,683
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    #32 Shadowfax, Apr 9, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
    ....well it's very easy to say it's just "familiarity" Zues when you haven't driven either car and are a overt cheerleader for the Ferrari brand no matter what is put up.

    If I may also point out, the reviewer in the above vid has given his own random account as someone who doesn't own either car (which he referenced) however, has the opportunity to jump in and out of these cars to drive them and review them in various environments so he can offer (what he feels is a qualified impression) on how each car drives. Maybe you should put yourself in this same position and see if you feel its all just familiarity because from my own experience as an owner I couldn't say it is "familiarity" at all - well most certainly not in the context you infer.

    Porsche's current GT cars can feel "familiar" only because everything connects with the driver so perfectly even if never driven before as a car. That is quite an achievement for any brand to be able to do that. Ferrari should be able to do this by now!

    Having owned 2 Ferrari's now it is a "familiar" car for me to drive now, as I've since learned it's individual characteristics over the course of my ownership in the various environments which I drive. However the Ferrari is not "familiar"in any context where I can say everything feels so seamless and perfect to the driver along the course of each and every journey in any sense where anyone could step into it and feel at home straight away. And that is a big pity especially when Ferrari has had more than ample time and opportunity along with being able to draw upon the competitions latest cars to benchmark their own against so they can get their own car 100% right or desirably better. But they don't and that's just it! And, I'm not sure if its out of arrogance or, if its because their mainstream customer simply don't drive for long enough, far enough or, hard enough in the environment which the car was designed to perform in to be able to come back with any critique worthy of paying attention to. That could well be it for all I know. Well from what I read here on Fchat not every Ferrari owner is a "Zeus" and will take whatever is given so long as it has a Ferrari badge on it and can claim a fast lap time so please don't indulge yourself.

    As a Ferrari owner expecting better, I place the blame on guys like yourself for protecting sub par engineering instead of doing the right thing and calling it out loud and clear so Ferrari is able to sit up and pay attention and can bring their car up to the mark where it should be....or desirably higher.

    Now maybe you are the way you are Zeus because you simply can't feel these elements or, have never experienced any car where the elements are all working so seamlessly and in such perfect harmony with one another (which is highly possible I suspect) - a case where you haven't driven any other brand for long enough and/or in the right environments to know any better or form any proper judgement. Either way Zeus you are not doing your beloved Ferrari brand least of all its customers (some of whom who expect better when they fork over this level of coin) any favor persistently trying to defend obvious flaws as being acceptable or amazing traits in some crazy way.

    So far as I'm concerned the Pista, as wonderful as it it is in so many ways, should have been better. I will say it again for you;- It has nothing at all to do with track times whatsoever so there is no need continuing to draw upon that as your only point in (trying to) gain traction every time anything is said in contrary to what you want to hear.

    Pista should have a stance like a track focused car and not a family car! Pista should have fully adjustable suspension! Pista should have brakes that don't hoe through pads like no tomorrow! Pista should have an inside and outside sound to match its namesake at all speeds - and, it currently doesn't but should do!! But of course you will have an answer for this no doubt:rolleyes:.
     
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  10. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    6,044
    Bournemouth, UK
    Shadowfax, these as are your personal preferences, nothing more than that; don 't kid yourself. As you can read, other owners/drivers beg to differ. Thinking that you are wiser than all the others is somewhat amusing. At any rate, since you chose to make this personal, I prefer the way Ferraris drive, simply because they are more darty and energetic, whilst also being quicker more often than not. Calling a Pista sub-par, engineering-wise, is just absurd. Whilst all supercars are great feats of engineering, people have different preferences; but I am sure you will find a way to dismiss that too...
     
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  11. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    3,683
    Australia
    #34 Shadowfax, Apr 10, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
    But you don't even own a Pista! I do. I've said what is sub par and that is my opinion. I'm not selling mine as I really like the car now i've sorted the valve controller and I'll like even more once I've dealt with the other issues. I'm just saying in a car of this value and claimed pedigree these things should have been there on this car to begin with. The only one kidding anyone is yourself as per usual. You have a tendency for speaking for everyone as if you are some kind of official mouthpiece for Ferrari. Funny. I've merely stated my own opinion - not speaking for anyone else but myself - but i'm pretty sure there are other Pista owners out there that would have liked these things dealt with on the car. If there isn't then so be it. It's not the end on MY world. Far from it! At least I own the cars I critique. Maybe just work on that part before you get your feathers ruffled.
     
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  13. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    6,044
    Bournemouth, UK
    Far from it, I just summed up what others have said, while also voicing my humble opinion. You are entitled to your own opinion of course, just don't try it to enforce it as a universal truth, as per your usual M.O. At the end of the day it seems that Porsche's philosophy suits you better; all good and dandy with that. That doesn't mean that other manufacturers are sub-par though. You need to understand that other people prefer a different approach. Their race winning records, the objective performance of their road cars and the loyalty of their clients, speak volumes about that.
     
  14. mdrums

    mdrums Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2006
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    I don’t own a Pista but can compare my 2019 488GTB to my 2018 GT3....different feels obviously with both cars but the way you sit in the Porsche and how the Porsche feels, even on the road is what Shadofax has said...you are more connected with the Porsche. Steering feel, body lean...lack of, PDK shifting I give to nod to Porsche on the street or track.

    My 488GTB really needs sticky tires like the Cup2 on the GT3. The 488GTB lacks grip on the Pirelli PZero so coming out of a turn the Ferrari will get sideways real easy where the GT3 just goes.

    The stance is better on the Porsche where the Ferrari has so much wheel/fender gap. Also build quality might be better with the Porsche with how parts of the interior is put together and lack of creaks and rattle.

    Power is so much greater with the Ferrari and I sort of like the looks of the Ferrari better. My wife prefers the Ferrari and the seats in the Ferrari better than the bucket seats in the GT3...I like the buckets in the gt3 better.

    All personal opinions...but Porsche really punches well above its price class. I can’t wait to see what they do with the 992 GT3RS.
     
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  15. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 2, 2005
    2,177
    Earth
    Porsche will "tweak" a few things on the 992 GT3/2RS and the formula will remain. In terms of price the Pista, 765S, 2RS and forthcoming Huracan STO are all about the same price so really its down to personal preference. There is no "right or wrong" and if you have the means own all four. All are brilliant cars and for the average shmuck who does a few track days and some spirited driving who cares.

    Get in before EV's are mandated by the "overlords" and we cant even debate these issues in the future :)
     
  16. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    3,683
    Australia
    Agree all are brilliant cars. 765 is my new objective. No interest in the Lambo as I don't fit. Pista is bound for the cutting board if/when I can drive it to where it needs to go, 3rs is exactly where I wan't it, 2rs is also exactly where I want it but may do the Manthey just for the hell of it once Pista is bought up to the mark where it should have been in the first place! But a lot of this now depends upon whether we can even drive our bloody cars anymore thanks to Corona. What a sad situation the world is now in when you cant even drive your cars where you want and when you want. Crazy. The whole world is in jail now.
     
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  17. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 2, 2005
    2,177
    Earth
    "Shadow" in the fascist state I live in they are talking not until we get a vaccine ffs. I might need to move temporarily....
     
  18. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    3,683
    Australia
    It's the same up here bud. Ridiculous. Can't even take my f/g cars out!!! I've been spending a lot of time in the garage lately. It's never been so tidy. I may get the floor tiled. Looks like our next tas meet is a pipe dream now shack.
     
  19. Chicko

    Chicko Formula 3

    His Pista is finally on the Ring with its new set up.

     
    SoCal to az, C50, MarkTodd and 3 others like this.
  20. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    3,608
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    That's serious driving now ;)
    I wonder whether this sort of tuning could also improve the 488 GTB and/or the F8 (I guess it should...)
     
  21. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    3,683
    Australia
    Very informative and he appears very pleased with the result. Really appreciate the time Robert's put in to making these vids and explaining the process and changes and detailing his specs - huge kudos! He is so fortunate having the NR and a company like Manthey at his fingertips. The only thing I didn't hear him confirm was whether the lowering exacerbated the bottoming out on certain sections of the circuit.
     
  22. jim g

    jim g Formula Junior

    Jan 8, 2003
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    Jim Gress
    Awesome! That's the type of driving exhibition needed if your critiquing a Ferrari's performance.
     
  23. mdrums

    mdrums Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2006
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    Great video and huge handling improvement for Robert....love this video plus Roberts Manthey alignment video.

    He is running:
    -1.6 camber front
    -1.8 camber rear....
    1 degree toe in front
    2 degree toe in rear.

    Ferrari ships the car with 1 degree toe out front and Robert went totally the other way. This is all personal taste on how a person likes the steering to feel at the track and Roberts toe in the front takes out the cars twitchy feeling.

    Also the car was lowered around 12-14mm. and corner balanced. He found issues with the shock threads and the collars would not thread all the way down. He was shooting for 20mm drop.

    Also...KEY NOTE...is, Robert is running Nankang AR-1 tires in stock 20: sizes 245 front and 305 rear. These are track tires and super grippy so I believe some of the specs the car is set to reflect Roberts taste, the Nurburgring track and these tires. Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 Tires from my past experience do not require lots of camber however -1.6 and -1.8 is not massive camber anyway. However all in all this gives a good rule of thumb to go by in setting a basic track/street performance style alignment.
     
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  24. rmitchell248

    rmitchell248 Formula 3

    May 26, 2013
    1,067
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    Robert
    Hey Guys, I am sorry that im so late to the party.. I did not know this topic was going on. I am going to make a new post here in the 488 section and talk about all these upgrades, the driving experience etc. I can compare a bit to the GT2 as well:)
     
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  25. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    Nov 25, 2012
    10,279
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    Great video. glad you are here. Looking forward to hearing more from you.
     
  26. Ianjoub

    Ianjoub Formula Junior

    Dec 22, 2019
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    Ian Joubert
    Yet, Ferrari will likely tell you that you bought the wrong car. "Buy an FXXK Evo" ...
     
  27. Ianjoub

    Ianjoub Formula Junior

    Dec 22, 2019
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    Ian Joubert
    Yes! And people shell out big $$$ for high end street cars. If they want a track car, they buy on of those AS WELL. You can have a nice track car for $50k. Why beat on your $500k Pista?
     
  28. FutureF

    FutureF Rookie

    Nov 28, 2017
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    Tom N
    Got your video from today posted here: Video review update on the Manthey Racing suspension tweaks for the Pista.
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/index.php?threads/Video-review-update-on-the-Manthey-Racing-suspension-tweaks-for-the-Pista%2E.621377/

    Keep up the great content!


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     

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