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Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by Chicko, Apr 4, 2020.
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Couldn't agree with him more on this. Whilst the Pista is fun to drive on track the Pista is definitely more of a road car and not the track animal which some make it out to be or like to believe it is. I'm very keen to hear how it works out on the circuit after these minor tweaks or if new coils or full struts are required to resolve the car from rubbing on compression. Also very keen to hear if some of the twitchiness is resolved because if it is i'm definitely in on the changes.
I see he has posted another vid on it too. Interesting how the threads only allow a 10mm drop....
watch from 6 minutes on..
Robert Mitchell owns the Nurbergring taxi company APEX, He has a long history of modifying his own cars and his company fleet to work well on that circuit. Their M3 ring taxi is quite a thing.
I hope these adjustments help but I do not feel the Pista will be the complete car the GT2RS is...both on the street and track.
I think it could be made as complete (at further expense to the owner) but it's a crying shame Ferrari can't seem to provide a so called track focused car out of the box that at least matches what Porsche has provided especially given they had Porsches benchmark to work from. And calling it Pista (after a racetrack) is a Pissta Take'a.
My feeling is that with the Pista, in spite of their claims, Ferrari did not intend to address customers liking to track their cars - they wanted to address most Ferrari customers, selecting them by price / exclusivity rather than by specific destination.
It did not seem to be a bad move commercially, but not so impressive for customers initially looking for the claimed proposition.
Im pretty sure the GT2 RS that set the Ring record was modified and setup by Manthey racing ( APEX's ring taxi's GT2 RS has the same Manthey mods)..
Yes but the car felt like a proper track focused car out of the box well and truly before the Manthey kit came along. The manthey kit only made the gt2 into an even more capable monster. Pista never drove with the same focus and intent of the gt2 out of the box. I think many were looking for more than what was delivered regardless of how fast it is. I know i was. Doesn't mean I don't love the car but if enough buyers call it out maybe Ferrari will stop the BS and supply a car with the right basics. Its not just all about hp and acceleration and a lap time. There's more to it. You cant call a car a racetrack and then have it sound like a *****cat off throttle and have it jacked up like a monster truck with inadequate suspension adjustment and, have brakes that chew through pads like no tomorrow. That's really not acceptable imho.
If I recall correctly, Mr Mitchell had similar gripes with their GT2 RS, and also had it modded by Manthey. As he said himself, every driver has different driving style and preferences. Also keep in mind that the Ring is a "track" that requires a unique set-up, that differs from the ones required at proper tracks. Ferrari, unlike Porsche, doesn't set up its cars for the Ring.
Not talking about ring set ups or driving style or, individual set ups, although it'd be appropriate for Ferrari to at least provide for that flexibility in their track focused offering! A big problem right there!
Was also referring to the car actually feeling like it was a track focused version instead of feeling like just a capable very fast street car which can be driven on a track.
The main difference between the Gt2 and Pista is that Gt2 actually drives like a track focused car which can also be driven on the rd whereas the Pista drives like a road car which can be driven on a track. But then so can a lot of other road going cars inc your mainstream Ferrari's, Lambo's and Porsches etc....
you are correct... Manthey is the place and they are an arm of Porsche. Glad they looked into the Pista but the Pista would need far more help to match a GT2RS pace at a track... not just the Nurburgring
Independently tested, the Pista has proven to be quicker than the 2 RS on most tracks. That also answers to my friend Shadowfax, about one being more track focused than the other, I guess.
I think Ferrari knows that most Pista's will never see the track and if they do it will be some dealer event. Porsches on the other hand are often tracked. I have seen more Porsches at track days than any other make, BMW probably 2nd.
I have tracked several Pistas as well as the GT2RS and GT3RS. I’ve owned all of them. The GT2RS does not feel anymore track focused than a Pista. The Pista with its MUCH more aggressive shifts, more engine and turbo noise, etc feels more track focused. The current track record at our local track Apex Motor Club is by a Pista as well. It was set by a Pista last fall and I reset it not long ago.
The feeling of a track focused car comes from handling, steering feel, braking feel, more so than sound. I was just discussing Apex with a friend and remembered this video of the track record by a McLaren 600LT at a 1.44 which is supposed to be fast there. It all depends on the driver too but what did the Pista do? Got a video to share?
No kidding. Shifts are how it sounds? I’d take the Pista over the 2RS in all the categories you mentioned as well. Pista is much more aggressive. I know what race cars are I’ve had several. Was just in a new Huracan Super Trofeo at our track as well.
I have not been in a Pista so I don’t know how it shifts but I would think maybe differently than my 488GTB. I like how my GT3 PDK shifted better though. Thanks for the IG link...good video and I followed you.
The shifts are very aggressive and one of the things I love about the Pista. The 2RS PDK shifts fast but it’s very seamless and you don’t feel them like in the Pista. The power delivery in the Pista is also a lot different than the 2RS. I have some good track videos but last time I posted a link on here they ban me. You can find them though if you look for my YT channel.
Cool..thanks...is your YouTube the same name as your handle here?
That 600LT video is me when I had a 600LT. That video didn’t pop up a bit ago but I just noticed it now. That’s my YouTube Channel I did a mid 1.42 in the Pista. 1.43.9 in my 19’ 3RS. The in car in the Super Trofeo is also on my YT channel. Only drove it a few laps but was in the mid 1.35’s. I think I can do a 1.41 in the Pista but I only did 12 laps when I took mine. I do have in car video from the Pista but I haven’t posted it yet.
Pista shifts are like canon fire under hard throttle - very aggressive. That particular element would be one of THE most invigorating elements of the car to me. Love the shifts! Yet in normal driving the shifts become much like 488....which is also fine. The auto mode is as useless as ever much as the 488's.
Clearly other elements are subjective as coincid points out, but some not so. I don't back away from any of my earlier comments with regard to Pista feeling more like a regular version car on the road in comparison to the 2rs which always retains the feel of being a track focused car. It is what it is and 2 guys I know who also own both and who've joined on track days have arrived at the some conclusion. Some here shouldn't take it as a slight on the car but it does very much feel quite the regular car during normal driving and I've given my reasons why. Still love it as much and in some ways more than my 2rs and vice versa - two different feels - but the fact remains it is wanting in a few key areas with regard to certain sensations you would expect in this type of car.
I would agree there that Pista needs some tweaks to remove certain artificial race car feel and return it more analogue/natural. I thought Robert M summed it up very well even though there is a level of subjectivity between individual preferences. Either way there should be provisions in the car to accommodate for these adjustments easily without the need to replace things.....as would be expected in this type of "track focused" offering. Pista is also the easier to drive of the two - nothing wrong with that - but for some there is more to driving these cars than just laying down the best times. This is where the gt3rs comes into play. May not be as fast but its sure one hell of a fun car to drive hard on circuit and anywhere for that matter.....very complete and accomplished. Hopefully Manthey can resolve the car but I suspect it will need new stiffer struts to remove the bottoming out particularly now it's been lowered.
@Shadowfax and @PistaGuyAZ
I've driven both (GT2 RS and Pista) on the track. Just last week, in fact (private track, so don't worry about this whole quarantine BS). Back-to-back. Same day, same conditions. The GT2 RS, stock, is no more a "track focused car" from behind the wheel than the Pista. At least as far as this n00b is concerned. So on this point I have to agree with @PistaGuyAZ
Both are great cars, and it doesn't really make sense to say one is more track focused -- out of the box -- than the other.
Now, the GT2 RS MR version is probably something quite special. Even though Porsche owns a controlling interest (check me on that) in Manthey Racing, it's fair to say that the GT2 RS MR is really not "stock". But I'm sure the MR version that set the 'Ring record definitely drives differently on a circuit than a 2RS straight from the Porsche showroom floors.
Not trying to troll ... just genuinely curious.
What "certain sensations" are you referring to?
The only discernable difference I could tell between the 2RS and Pista were (1) the 2RS puts down power much easier and more efficiently and (2) it has much more low end torque (which may or may not be a good thing)
I think when you are talking about driving them both on track I would agree Pista's track inspired elements come together equally to 2rs in it's own individual way. Insofar as certain individual driving characteristics go I would agree that 2rs definitely powers down better and is more immediate and efficient in overall precision and feel of the controls. Pista feels to have a better/faster mid corner to it and entry, where the 2rs you need to watch it more there. Brakes are both very good but I find 2rs has the better modulation and overall feel and generally has a more organic feel to the way it drives under all driving conditions where Pista can feel a bit overly darty and twitchy in comparison. In some ways that works at lower speeds but not so much at higher speeds. That said Pista feels more secure to drive high speeds in a straight line over 200. On road the combination of each cars track inspired elements become more obvious to which one is the better put together - more rounded as a package. 2rs wins here hands down imho. 2rs's elements (sound and feel of all controls) work seamlessly all the time regardless of whether on road or track and are very well put together as a package vs the Pista which falls short particularly in sound (in both volume and consistency between being on and off throttle) unless the valves are open all the time by the controller. This is not a problem during track driving though as its always loud enough inside then. The brakes can also become a bit grabby esp when they get hot vs 2rs's which just modulate beautifully all the time allowing a more precise placement of the car during corner entry. Suspension compliancy is very good on both but Pista doesn't feel as taught and also feels softer even though the chassis generally sits flat enough through the corners, although when pushed hard it does get more lean/roll up to it than the 2rs which remains more planted/flat in that area indicating the coils and sways are better sorted. It's a few things but as a track focused offering which would see fun times on the road Pista drives much more like a regular car than the 2rs in that environment for sure. I also think as a car to drive in the wild the Gt2rs feels more efficient and predictable yet still is more work than the easier Pista. This to me adds to the fun element. Maybe if you spend more time in both you will get to feel more of what I'm referring to but on road driving it becomes far more obvious to which is the more track focused. Both are sensational cars though and I consider them keepers at this stage. But the GT2rs feels more complete as a track focused package than the Pista. There are changes I would make in Pista for sure where with the 2rs I don't feel the same need to play around with it although the Manthey kit is tempting on the basis those with it all rave.