"OLDTIMER MARKT" Buyers guide | FerrariChat

"OLDTIMER MARKT" Buyers guide

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by moserpe, Jul 22, 2007.

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  1. moserpe

    moserpe Karting

    Jul 20, 2006
    137
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Peter Moser
    The German OLDTIMER MARKT magazine (http://www.oldtimer-markt.de) has published a buyers guide for 365 GT4, 400, 400i and 412 in the 7/2007 volume.

    Basically they discourage anyone to buy these cars unless one has money to waste. The conclusion is that the investment in such a car will be lost. Nevertheless, their market value table shows a value of approx. 40 k€ for e.g. my 400iA - considering the total mileage and the overall condition - which is much higher than I would have expected and which would mean a nice profit if I was going to sell it.
    My car has none of the corrosion problems reported as normal (they say, it is as bad as any Fiat 128 or Alfasud!!!!).

    The only thing that worries me is the coupling of the vacuum pump. They report that this component is prone to brake and the debris will damage the timing chain with the consequence of a major engine damage.
    Does anyone in this forum have such experience? Is it wise to replace this coupling on preventative basis (my car has accumulated 28000 miles only)?

    Peter
     
  2. Hans

    Hans F1 Veteran

    Feb 17, 2006
    7,734
    Hilversum, Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Hans Teijgeler
    Hi Peter,

    Thanks for the link.

    I've been following the 400 market in Europe for a while (out of rather special interest). Generally speaking, any Ferrari is worth considerably more in Europe than it would be in the US. 400i's in Europe fetch from 22,000 euros for a very shabby specimen to the upper 30's for a car in pristine condition. Judging by your web site, yours falls in the latter category. Manual is worth a few 1000 more than automatic, by the way. Somehow, most swiss cars seem to be automatics.

    In any case, congratulations on your car!

    Cheers,

    Hans
    (Netherlands, with 308GT4 and a strong 400 desire, as well as plans to move to Switzerland)
     
  3. hskasimir

    hskasimir Karting

    Apr 5, 2006
    64
    Berlin
    Full Name:
    Howard Sheronas
    I have just bought the magazine - there are a few things that I don't agree with.
    First, they're claiming that these cars are not a good investment, since the maintenance cost is so high and the value or prices for a car to buy so low. Now that shows you that whoever wrote this article doesn't seem to be so familiar with ferraris at all. I would be very, very surprised if these cars don't start to appreciate in value fairly soon. Tell me one good reason why they shouldn't. What this guy obviously doesn't understand is the fact that the maintenance cost on any previous 2+2 was just as much and they go for upwards of 60.000 Euros up to over 100.000 nowadays.
    Secondly, he might be right about the quality of steel, but then these cars were handmade with much better paint jobs. To compare them with a FIAT 126 or an alfasud is ridiculous. And how many people, if I might ask, were using these cars as daily drivers in northern european conditions? There can't be too many. I bought my car in Italy and it still has its original paint job and there is not a single flaw after 100.000 km.
    The problem about the vacuum pump is completely new to me. If this a "common problem", then why isn't there a single thread on this topic here on f-chat? I'll do some more research but I doubt I will come up with much.
    This magazine caters mainly to classic car enthusiasts with small budgets and that's the sort of perspective they're writing this from. Which is good. Of course there are lots of people who think they can afford a Ferrari by just looking at the sale price. But they are exagerating quite a bit. For instance they're claiming that a Michelin TRX tire for 415 Euros (is this true, by the way?) is the only legal tire for a 400, which is just not true.
    I wouldn't give this too much thought...
     
  4. Davidindallas

    Davidindallas Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
    344
    Is there a link to the text of the piece on the site or just the teaser to the article in the table of contents? I'm having trouble navigating, as I don't speak German.
     
  5. hskasimir

    hskasimir Karting

    Apr 5, 2006
    64
    Berlin
    Full Name:
    Howard Sheronas
    No, I think you hav to buy the magazine. I would translate the article if it was worthwhile - it isn't...
     
  6. mauispence

    mauispence Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2005
    526
    Lahaina, Maui, Hawai
    Full Name:
    Jim Spence
    Boy am I glad you made that statement. I'm having the same problem but I thought it was because I couldn't read German. I'll go fire up those old Berlitz tapes!
     
  7. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Mar 20, 2004
    7,573
    Full Name:
    Mike
    If you have TRX rims then it is the only tire that will fit. You can always change the wheels to take a standard tyre, but don't some European countries require TUV approval
    for even the most minor change to the car?

    Anyway, I agree that a 400/412 series is an endless money pit and unlikely to appreciate in value. These are a more complex car than a 3xx series car so there more things to go wrong, andpossibly due to low production volumes, parts are often very expensive.

    So what.

    I wanted a 4 seater Ferrari so the family can go on outings together. The V8's are too small. The pre 1973 cars are simply "old" to drive, and a 456 too expensive and complicated to fix. The logical choice is a 4xx series car. Big, fast, powerful, roomy, classy, has a V12 and still "repairable" and (relativley) inexpensive to buy.

    I love my 412.

    Michael
     
  8. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Dec 31, 2005
    7,090
    lexington ky usa
    Full Name:
    mitchell barnes
    good points mike. bottom line. i want, therefore i have. cost, who cares, not me
     
  9. hskasimir

    hskasimir Karting

    Apr 5, 2006
    64
    Berlin
    Full Name:
    Howard Sheronas
    I don't really know about the 400's and 412's but for my 365 GT4 the original tires are Michelin XWX at appr. 320 Euros a piece, nevertheless I could fit a Pirelli at somewhere around 130 Euros a piece. I am in Germany, the kingdom of TUV and all I'm required to put on my wheels are 215/70VR15...
    I still don't agree that they won't appreciate in value just because they are difficult to work on. These are cars with very low production numbers - a little over 500 of the 365's and 412's and roughly 1800 for the 400's. There hasn't been a single Ferrari that hasn't started to appreciate in value at some point. Just you wait and see. Let's talk 5 years from now...
     

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