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Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by bighitter2, Oct 17, 2020.
Anybody know anything about the NO Reserve Daytona on BAT
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The only thing I know is I saw it last night and drooled over it. Whats market price on a Daytona these days? 600 or 700? I have no idea. I saw the bid go from like 40k to 300k in one bid, but thats still way short of value and like 2 weeks to go on the auction. I was hoping for a thread on this. They had a yellow one fail to meet reserve a while back. I think it went to the mid 500s.
Edit: I was wrong, yellow car bid to 490
Here is the one for sale now
The U.K. version of BaT, Collecting Cars sold a Daytona last month for £450k all in, it had less miles than this and was original colour and Classiche certified. That should give so,e guide to what this will realise. Regardless as a car brought last in 1999, I suspect the sellers is already ahead even at the current high bid.
15009 is going to need a lot of work to make it nice. It would also benefit from going back to the original color Argento Metallizzato 106-E-1.
It will be good to see what a real selling price for a driver Daytona is. I would guess just under $500k.
Resale red isn't quite as bad on a Daytona as it is on some of the other models. I agree with Marcel, though-- the original color would have been nicer.
This is indeed, an interesting car.
If I were still in the market, I would probably be investigating. From the pictures, it looks very "sincere" (for me, this is a very high-praise statement); short-comings are pretty apparent, and overall condition of the car looks consistent across many different aspects. My guess is that the car stands a good chance of being more-or-less exactly what it appears to be.
When I was shopping, there were not many cars that I thought looked "sincere" in the pictures.
If it gets anywhere close to $500k, I'll be thrilled, as it would indicate that Daytona prices are rebounding a bit, and I'll be less under-water on my car...
One curious thing is how green the back-surface of the tool-kit vinyl is. I've seen a lot of kits that had a slight green tint, but never seen one where it was so strong.
I've often wondered if those green-back bags were some really nice reproduction that was available a long time ago (and hence now generally old looking, and sort of common), or whether the green-tint indicates something about the vintage of the bag (as there are some (very likely to be well-preserved original) bags where the backing is just brown)...
I'd be surprised if this goes over $450k.
Ahh, FC'er NSXER is leading so far! He has great tastes and acquires some really special cars.
Pretty much what I would have expected these days; no rebound...
Market correct for that car.
Any price ever paid for any car is and has always been "Market correct for that car.".
Or is my logic somehow off ?
Depends on the definition of "market"; any given result is correct for the group of buyers were actively considering the example, and the information that was available to that group of buyers.
Sometimes the group of buyers is artificially small, or the info available was not completely accurate. And in that case, the result in one market might not be the same in a bigger, more well-informed market.
I suspect that what 375+ meant is that a similar result would have happened even with a very large buyer group and pretty correct information; i.e., the result was "correct" for most "markets" that the car could have been offered in.
I would tend to agree that $425k seemed about right for this car.
I think the RM conversion from a week-or-two ago might not have been "market correct" in the sense of a very large and well-informed market. At $500k+ (all in), that seemed like a pretty high number based on what the pictures seemed to show; my guess is that folks were assuming that the car was better than the pictures indicated, because it was part of a collection that had a lot of nice-looking cars in it. But it is also possible that some of those buyers inspected the car, and knew something that was not apparent from the pictures. Always so hard to know...
To me, you bid what the car seems worth to you, and if you win, just "enjoy the ride" (or the "wrenching", if it turns out that way... ).
"market correct" to me means that you could probably go buy another one in similar condition for that price as well. I think if you started making serious $400-425k cash offers on Daytonas, you would find some takers.
With all due respect Alex, but I've heard/read/seen these ^^ types of "explanations"/ "opinions"/ "spins" countless times since I started wearing adult pants +/-40 years ago and none of it has ever made any (logical) sense or changed the fact that each car's (or whatever item's) sales transaction only represents a price agreement between the seller and the buyer for that particular car (or item), nothing more, nothing less. Unless there's a lot of identical (condition, etc) cars (or items) available at the same time. You know, like houses in some neighborhood or new cars at a dealer lot, etc
And in an auction setting, like the case of the discussed example, all other "potential" buyers obviously didn't agree on it's value being that and who knows, perhaps the final bidder would've been willing to pay much more if someone else continued to think its worth more, but that too is just as useless speculation as any you're offering, right ?
And "opinions" of those not even bidding should mean even less (or at least that's the basic concept I was taught already in elementary school).
But then again, I've never looked at my hobbies or leisure spending from "speculative" perspectives nor based/justified it on "opinions" of others.
I just buy or do what I like and can afford at that moment.
And yes, I've bought (vintage) cars for 15%-20% of what sellers (and perhaps others) thought them being worth and some I've paid more than twice what others thought them being worth...
... and never regretted any.
So how many "market hawks" here are willing to prove their assessment/claim correct ?
And perhaps start with buying (and promptly selling ?) at least few (5-6 ?) rather than just one to prove they have an average "market value" ?
I'm not in the business of buying and selling cars, and at the moment I'm not in the market for a Daytona. However, if I were, I feel confident that I could get a perfectly acceptable one (for me) for under $450k.
Did not mean to offer any speculation.
In your previous reply, you seemed to be asking a question about the possible alternative lines of logic, and I was just giving the standard Economics 101 alternative. Don’t disagree that in any specific transaction, theories are just theories, and there is no way to know what is really going on.
Anyway, I gather that your question was meant to be rhetorical.
Apologies for the misinterpretation of intent...
Regarding the BaT car, if I were still in the market, I’m not sure I would have bid $425k on it, but I think I would have bid $400k. This is why (at least to me) the selling price seemed to be sort of the “expected amount”; I know what I think is a reasonable price based on available evidence, and historically (seen several cars sell for more than I would have paid), others tend to think that specific examples are worth more than I do...
I made a post auction comment on the BAT auction Daytona thread to the affect that in my opinion this car sold short and that I thought a live auction would have been a better format for that car. BAT deleted my comment.
It might have achieved a slightly higher hammer price but after sellers commission and transport costs to the auction would the amount returned to the vendor been any better?
Just curious-- why do you think that? Do you think there would have been different bidders? Were there people who were actively looking for a Daytona who were not aware of the BaT car?
Alex, no apologies needed and I hope my comments aren’t or weren’t (too) offending for anyone here either.
It’s just that all “rhetorical”(?) commenting, complaining or criticism people seem to offer on asking/buying/selling prices of old/used/vintage cars and other things, especially by those not even involved with that particular transaction or perhaps not even seriously “in the market” for identical car or item, has never made sense to me.
Perhaps this stems from my lack of formal (higher) education for “Economics 101” or my upbringing, which included just fair amount of basic Logic 101 life lessons.
I view critiquing someone’s (too high?) “asking” price, “reserve” at an auction or someone else paying more than “the critic” would equating to that of critiquing or complaining about someone else’s choice for their spouse (i.e. “Ohh, she’s too good/pretty/skinny/young/etc for him” or “Yeah, he’s too bald/old/poor/stupid/etc. for her”....)
How often do we hear third party (outsiders ?) complaining/critiquing about “asking“ or “selling” prices being too low ? I mean other than from those who might've bought or own something on speculation and had paid a lot more than current pricing perceptions seem to indicate or suggest.
Or if someone is listing a vehicle X for sale at $1M when peanut gallery thinks it’s only worth half that and consider the seller an idiot/stupid/etc, but if the X sells for, let’s say, $900K, the seller suddenly becomes a hero and buyer is now considered an idiot/stupid/etc. by that same peanut gallery.
I don’t see that as “economics 101” or even grownup behavior, just something I left behind sometime during my early elementary school years.
I’m not following or investing/involved in things like RE or stock “markets”, but is this type of behavior/criticism common in those circles or other “hobbies” ?
Do economics of golf, downhill skiing or gardening evoke similar commenting, complaining or criticism ?
End of rant.
Just an opinion. Speaking for myself, buying a Daytona at live auction is already enough risk. Buying one sight unseen is unthinkable. Too many subtle things to assess. From private conversations, I gather that live on-line auctions filters others too.
Nothing to stop you trying to arrange an inspection prior to the finish of an online sale though. Sold a somewhat cheaper car (a Porsche 944) by an ebay auction many years ago, still had people come and view the car before the bidding closed. Actually worked in my favour as the winning bidder who had not seen the car tried to get some money off when he saw the car saying I had misrepresented it (I hadn't). When I pointed out the underbidder had inspected the car and had bid only £100 less he backed down and paid the full price.
I believe people do what they feel comfortable with and guess that buying a random (used) cars through auction (without proper PPI) may not be that different from gambling, which a lot of people seem to enjoy(?) and help keep millions employed and lights on in A.C., L.V., Macau, etc.
I've also wondered (though not that hard) how many of those commenting on auction outcomes/results have actually ever bought or sold that type of vehicles at auctions.
I've never done it for myself, but been a proxy for some clients & friends, although only on examples they or I had in-depth/personal knowledge of, like cars I've restored or personally knew their owners/sellers history with the given car.
Also, just because there might be other bidders besides the "winner"(?) at any given auction, doesn't necessarily mean there's a "market" or even larger demand for that particular lot, let alone other similar ones. Many bids can be from those "gambler"-types (or dealers, flippers, etc) who may not feel any real desire to own it, but place a bid they're comfortable with "just in case...".
I know of and have been a proxy on few such occasion, when clients or friends decided to bid on cars I've restored, merely because if "it" would end up selling for less than X (i.e. their limit) they'd kick themselves for not trying. Some may have even contributed to "world record"(?) prices few have achieved.
I've bought two cars on BringATrailer, neither of which I went and saw personally. I've also been a serious bidder on several others, and only in one case did I go see it in person-- and that was because it was about ten minutes from my office.
However, there is nothing to stop you from going and looking at a car in person or having an inspection done. The Daytona was on BaT for 14 days, I think, and if you are seriously considering spending half a million, the investment in time and money to go look at it seems pretty minimal in comparison.
Both of the cars I bought on BaT were about as expected-- one was slightly better and one was slightly worse. Both needed some work to bring them up to my "safe and reliable driver" level-- but I would expect to do that on any highly complex, 50+ year old expensive car.
With hundreds of pictures, videos, etc, several days to gather data, along with the reputation of the seller, it's pretty easy to figure out what you are getting on BaT. I would, in fact, argue it's much easier than a traditional in-person auction, where you have a day to look at a whole bunch of cars, and no real chance to inspect it beyond what you can see poking around.
+1 especially on BaT. Check the stats of the long winded members who post frequently--you will find that many have never bought or sold anything on BaT. Many have never even placed a bid.