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Narrowed it down...400 or Mondial

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by sjb509, Jun 22, 2005.

  1. sjb509

    sjb509 Guest

    After more research and weighing the pros & cons of each 2+2 model, I have decided that the models which most fit how I realistically will use the car (sunny day commuting, weekend family fun, 3-5k miles/year) are the Mondial and 365/400/412 cars. I am a decently-equipped home mechanic, and would plan to maintain the car myself as much as possible, FWIW.

    Others that are no longer considered and why:
    456: more than I wanted to spend. At home service difficult.

    308GT4: rear seat room is marginal at best. Wife vetoed based on styling.

    Vintage V-12 2+2's: Cost of entry seems high for a car I will actually use regularly. 1970's is as far back as I want to go. Maybe in a few years.

    Maserati Coupe: They offer good value, and I like the styling. They are still depreciating quickly, and the cost of maintenance is comparable to Ferrari with the F1 trans.

    Specific models under consideration:
    All of these cars require a certain amount of maintenance, certainly more than normal cars. All of these cars are at least 15 years old now, so there will of course be issues that will need to be addressed after purchase. At this point assume that looks are out of the equation, I like both equally.

    1. Mondial 8:
    Pros: Cost of entry. Utility (for a Ferrari). Build quality and rust protection. Lowest maintenance costs of the cars considered.
    Cons: Many scruffy examples. 2V injected motor has reputation to burn oil. Electronics.

    2. Mondial QV/3.2 Coupe:
    Pros: Faster than 8. Late 3.2's had ABS.
    Cons: Hard to find a nice one. Electronics.

    3. 400/400i/412 Auto:
    Pros: More utility and luxury. Auto trans can be rebuilt for relative peanuts. Cheap to buy. V-12.
    Cons: Two of everything under the hood. DOT/EPA. Rear shocks. Finding parts. Early cars rust

    4. 400/400i/412 Manual:
    Pros: More fun to drive than Auto.
    Cons: Someday the clutch and box will need rebuilding ($:($). Rear shocks. Finding parts. DOT/EPA.

    Conclusions:
    If my toy budget was $30-33k, at this point I find myself really looking at a 400A or a Mondial 8.

    For mid-$20's you can get a very nice Mondial 8, and have plenty left over for the inevitable maintenance costs. It may never be worth much more than that, but is probably fully depreciated as well. An intact Ferrari will never be a $10000 car. A Mondial 8 in nice cosmetic shape with high miles would be around $17-20k, IMHO. That is not much downside for the enjoyment of driving.

    Now for the selection of the 400A. Although the auto is often looked down upon by the purists, it would fit my use for the car better than the manual. $25k buys a nice one, $30k is a great car. Knowing that $3k (instead of $20k) is all that is required to rebuild a major component like the transmission would only add to the enjoyment. Learning to tune those six 38DCOE carbs would also be an experience. The sound would be fabulous. A 400iA or 412 would also be equally enjoyable simply because of the lack of attention needed for the injection.

    I would appreciate any input from owners with experience with both families of cars. If you have an opinion, look forward to reading it as well.
     
  2. jonathan70

    jonathan70 Rookie

    Feb 25, 2005
    22
    I've been lurking on this site since I began looking for the only Ferrari that I really ever wanted - a 400 (!) and wanted to read all the reviews and comments on these "unloved" cars. Most of the comments highlighted the low purchase cost (for a F-car) and the high costs to maintain and repair this V12 car with two of everything. Didn't scare me, as I've been gearheading for 20 years... so I took a look at two 5-speed versions and sadly discovered that my big 'ol feet (13's) just didn't allow me to activate the throttle without also activating the brakes. Not even close :>(

    Several months later, I had the chance to drive a 400A (FYI - Forza in Connecticut has two - ask for Peter, truly a class act !).

    I still love the looks - like a grown-up Daytona to me... I still love the feel of the interior - real leather and plenty of it and all those old-school toggle switches everywhere... But it drove (as numerous posts had indicated) just like a Jaguar XJS - responsive but heavy feeling, nice engine music but not really much power - and I therefore decided that my dream Ferrari wasn't going to happen and I bought a new speedboat instead.

    So until you've driven one of your choices, I wouldn't try to make your selection "on paper" or with logic. Buying one of these is from the heart, not the mind - IMHO. Driving one is the only way to choose...

    PS, regarding those rear shocks. Aftermarket (street & racing) is full of coil-over shocks/springs that can be infinitely tuned for compression, dampening, ride height and spring rate. Don't let the lack of OEM/NOS self-levelers bother you, as long as you are not "restoring" it.
     
  3. AR!

    AR! Formula Junior

    Apr 8, 2004
    974
    Berlin, Germany
    Why not look for both cars simultanously .. .. and buy the first example that deserves your love.
     
  4. russell

    russell Karting

    Mar 2, 2005
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    we have an 86 modail cabriolet white on white. Car has a clean title but damaged (swiped) right door fender and quater panel. Car still drives fine and we would sell it with the 3 parts (used) but perfect to repair it. in the low 20,s > Perfect for a cheap f-car that somebody might want to Work on or mingle with. If not eventually we break em for parts.
    russell@ferraripartsexchange.com
     
  5. andrewg

    andrewg F1 Rookie
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    The extra rust protection started mid way through the QV's production run,

    I've currently got an early QV mondial in our workshops which were rebuilding, from the waistline of the car down seems to be very rust prone on early QV's and 8's, to fix this were having to replace pretty much all of the rear end sheet metal and both sills,
    Intialy from the outside this car didnt look that bad, it was only when we looked underneath..............
     
  6. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
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    north of toronto
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    brett swaykoski
    i just drove my 1978 400a 1800km round trip from Toronto to Mont-Tremblant to Montreal for the grand prix. 8 days, 2 people,tools and spares,luggage for for the trip,my golf clubs,full cooler,tennis crap for 4,etc.etc.etc....and i kicked booty the whole way.my non-ferrari buddy following me in his 2005 mustang was blown-away. he seems to understand my passion a little better now as he couldn't touch me through all those long,fast,gorgeous sweepers from Montreal to Tremblant.
    i'm no life-long gearhead, i only have a passion for one marque, yet my car has been self-maintained (thanks Rocco) for 4 years and 50 000 km.
    Parts are a complete non-issue. sure,they don't giv'em away, but they're always here next day from Ferrari UK. some are cheap,some are outrageous.
    With all due respect to the Mondial line, as i do like them, there are just so many more reasons to go 400.

    brett
     
  7. wrxmike

    wrxmike F1 Veteran
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    Mar 20, 2004
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    I bought a manual 412 using similar "logic". The 412 is nice, rear shocks are available at present from Ferrari UK, but coil overs would be a good replacement if the rear suspension was sagging. It's not just the cost of the 4 shocks, but also the heigh level valve & pressure pump & hoses that need to be considered.
    All parts are expensive for these cars, and some items not available at all, for instance a 412 front indicator lens ( clear ).
    The offset pedal assembly is worse to use in the 412 than the 308/328 series car, gearshift is very heavy "truck like" comes to mind.
    Other 412/400 drama's are water pumps ( may entail engine out repair ) and rusty exhaust.

    The Monidal, in particular the 3.2 version is a nice car, although limited rear leg room - it's a more sensible buy that the 400/412 because they are easier & cheaper maintain , have more a sports car "feel" and are easier to re-sell.

    I chose the 412 because I already have a 308Gt4 and wanted a V12, and needed a decent rear seat for 2 young boys. The Mondial was too similar to the GT4 in terms of size, and I wouldnt sell the GT4 to get a Mondial
     
  8. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2003
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    #8 judge4re, Jun 23, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    New solution. One of each. That's what I did.
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  9. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    I'd go for a 400i Manual if you can, and a very late one will have a few 412 bits on it too.

    Don't be scared of clutch/gearbox. They're a piece of cake for a semi skilled techie. And go for the i, because they're turn key reliable. Carbs are great though, but with an i you also get a better ignition needing less work. 400's suck man hours like you wouldn't believe. approx 40 hours for a major service, not including ANY repairs.

    Make sure of valve clearances and cam timing. Change the timing chain if the tensioner has run out of adjustment. Try for a full stainless exhaust as that's the biggest expense.

    Don't worry about the levellers. Just get rid of them if they're a problem.
     
  10. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
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    David Jones
    If you are buying a Ferrari to have a back seat,
    I sure wouldn't want to be the poor guy trying to sit back there.

    I'd tote the family in a nice car with a real back seat,
    and get a 2 seat Ferrari that was not expensive to have the maintenance performed on.
    Both the 400 series and the Mondial T are on the upper end of the maintenance scale.

    A 3.2 Mondial would be much more affordable as far as maintenance goes
    in your budget range.
     
  11. Sailbad The Sinner

    Jun 8, 2005
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    Houston
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    Dave
    If you go with the Mondial, I'd suggest an '89 (or later) car, when they added power steering. I surprised my wife with an '88 QV cab (I still can't say that with a straight face) and she practically had to stand on the steering wheel to get it into the garage. She wound up trading it in on a Lexus, I'm left with a Ferrari-shaped hole in my psyche.

    Forget the back seat if your kids are over age 8 and have all four limbs.

    (Know where I can get a nice 348ts?)
     
  12. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2003
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    My suggestion is that you need to drive examples of both and find out which one pushes your buttons harder.

    The 365/400/412's are great long distance GT cars and were designed to drive all day at triple digit speeds.

    The Mondials are more sporting but need to be pushed hard to go fast.

    A well sorted example of either is a lot of fun, but you need to figure out what you want to do with it.
     
  13. sjb509

    sjb509 Guest

    Wanted to stay away from the Mondial T. Didn't want a convertible, only 40 or so T Coupes in the US. Engine out service was a definite minus as well.

    As I understand it on the 400, the V-12 needs to come out for water pump replacement, but after studying the parts & service manuals for these cars the 400 looks like it might be a little easier.

    BTW, no kids yet, but will have one by next spring.
     
  14. sjb509

    sjb509 Guest

    For what I want, the 400 would probably be the best choice, although the sound of the V-8 is nice as well. When I'm ready to buy I will have to drive some, although that in itself will be a chore. I'm not sure where the center of the Ferrari universe is in the US, but deep in Flyover Country is definitely not it. Probably Dallas or Chicago are the closest areas with multiple cars for sale.
     
  15. sjmst

    sjmst F1 Veteran
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    Jul 31, 2003
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    #15 sjmst, Jun 23, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    IF you want to pay mid 20's, I will sell you mine in a minute! No kidding.
    You are more on the mark with the 17-20 range for most any Mondial 8.
    Here are some pics of my Mondial 8. I would say my car, which just had a fresh major service and new clutch is a 19-20 car.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
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  16. davem

    davem F1 Veteran
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    Jan 21, 2002
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    Regarding your Mondial comments,
    Pass on the 8's unless you can buy a mint one like Sam's in the teens.
    The build quality and rust protection on those is nowhere as good as the later Mondys. Same with the electronics. The latest 3.2's are the best in all respects.
    The price diffrence is not all that great. I would choose even a slightly inferior condition 3.2 over a better 8 in fact. You will see some 3.2 coupes starting in the low to mid 20's though these are probably 86-87 models.

    Big question though how important that rear seat room is?
    My wife an I our both 6' and its tough to fit even the little one's back there.
    Other people here on this board state no problem, so you really need to try them on like clothes!
    Good luck..
     
  17. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    #17 El Wayne, Jun 23, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  18. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Give the man a break Wayne.

    That's like offering Cannabis to a "curious" non smoker.....
     
  19. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
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    brett swaykoski
    to remove the entire pump and separate from the oil pump the motor must come out BUT to perform a w/pump service you DO NOT need to remove anything....well except about $400 from your wallet.

    p.s. it is way less work than performing the same service on carbed 308 and will certainly need to be done less often. a mondial w/pump would be very similar to 308,no?

    brett
     
  20. AR!

    AR! Formula Junior

    Apr 8, 2004
    974
    Berlin, Germany
    Nice ;-)
     
  21. 208 GT4

    208 GT4 Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2003
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    From what I learned today, don't buy a 400/412 unless it already has a Stainless Exhaust.
     
  22. sjb509

    sjb509 Guest

    yes, I've read that a full OEM system is over $6k. But an OEM replacement will rot as well.

    Timevalve, Stebro, and Tubi are other possibilities, not sure of the cost.
     
  23. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

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    The other option to spending huge money for an OEM exhaust is to go to a custom fabricator and have one bent.
     
  24. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
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    brett swaykoski
    i removed the OEM center resonator sections and replaced them with a custom stainless solution from Stebro which then bolts up to the Ansa silencers at the back. they're basically straight through with one "bullet" style resonator per side. saved 100 pounds per side ( i know,i know....not a big deal on this pig ) but most importantly i got the sound i was looking for. very similar at idle and constant velocity but way more robust under load. it now sounds like it looks like it should sound...if you know what i mean. i love it.
    i was cautioned that it would be too loud this way but not at all. it is entirely appropriate for the car. it sounds exactly like a C4 now for approx. $1000 us.
    i highly recommend this type of solution to any 400/ i / 412 looking to replace the original exhaust. no potential buyer of the car will mind how much BETTER it sounds. trust me. hell, even if your exhaust is in good shape i would do it. you'll enjoy your car more while you have it AND an intact original if you sell the car..... now i wish i had thought of that a couple of years ago.

    brett
     

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