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Monterey auction week thread

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Timmmmmmmmmmy, Jun 30, 2019.

  1. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    The Porsche is closely connected to the Nazi regime but so what, all luxury and sporting German cars were closely connected to the regime, after all they were funded by the regime. Why would this Porsche be expected to be effected when a Mercedes 540K Special Roadster or a Silver Arrows GP car are $10 - 25 million and have little effect from their Nazi connections. The Porsche failed because it was 95% a VW, had 32bhp and was certainly not the most beautiful car one has ever seen. I picked mid teens would be enough but I have no doubt Marcels number noted below was more realistic and would simply refer to the first Ferrari which sold to Jim G for less than a million in the mid '00s. Many firsts are cool but they are underdeveloped, underpowered and often unresolved. So a good car for a collector with lots of Porsches but not the widespread appeal of say a 917 or 956, even a rare 911R or the best 935 and there it is.
     
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  2. P.Singhof

    P.Singhof F1 Rookie

    Apr 19, 2006
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    That article lost a lot of credibility once they talk about Porsche and "their" Type 64!
    The car pictured at the Rennsport Reunion is NOT a car owned by Porsche but the Prototype Museum in Hamburg. It is said to be reconstructed from a few remaining parts and not a real survivor like the car on auction. Porsche actually owns nothing but an alloy body (not original) displayed as a piece of art in their museum
    https://barchetta.mediacenter.plus/Museum-A-Z/-/Porsche-Museum/01-Porsche-Museum-2009-PS/Gallery-02/?ft=newest&v=a&dir=2285355&rd=1964532&i=4006406
    As always it is a question of definition: the car certainly is NOT a Porsche like the No.1 Roadster that marks the beginning of Porsche as a company... But actually the discrtiptions say it is the first car to have the Porsche name on it, but it still is a VW. Porsche is simply denying it being the first Porsche.
    In my opinion Porsche should have bought that car years ago and present it for what it is: a part of the Ferdinand Porsche history alongside the Cisitalia, Austro Daimler or the early Beetle they have on display...
    And let´s face it: PR wise it is not only bad for RM but also for Porsche...
     
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  3. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Thank you for the insight, Marcel. That is quite interesting.

    Jack.
     
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  4. 19633500GT

    19633500GT F1 Veteran
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    So, per this information, if it was offered anywhere from 9-11MM USD, and there were no takers, how did it go unsold at $17MM?

    Me thinks there is a ruse upon our hands!
     
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  5. Prancing 12

    Prancing 12 Formula 3

    May 11, 2004
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    It's certainly not the only lot that had been available prior to Monterey, where the auction house clearly over-promised to the seller in order to secure the consignment and then failed to deliver.
     
  6. 19633500GT

    19633500GT F1 Veteran
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    sure, but that delta is large...and for the bid to go on?
     
  7. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    There was zero bid, none. Not a single one.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  8. 19633500GT

    19633500GT F1 Veteran
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    That seems like a horrible business practice, and since I don't know what they may of promised the owner/estate, I can only speculate the greed is outstanding, and their "bid" was hoping to save face for both the auction house, and the car, and in that manner, what despicable behavior from both parties.
     
  9. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Check the link in post #232.
    "Chandelier bidding" is biz standard for some but not for all auction houses. Not just automobile auctions, all objects. No surprise at all.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  10. KenGoldman

    KenGoldman Formula Junior
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    Gentlemen: Per my comments on Link # 150:

    In going to auctions for over 50 years, I am 99.5% certain that there was no "High Bid" there. The terms of the auction state that the auctioneer can bid up to the reserve by placing several consecutive bids on behalf of the seller. So even though we heard 13, 14, 15, 16, there could be no actual bids at all. The reports that state "High Bid of 17" means nothing at all.

    I have written to various magazines telling about this. If you listen to the opening statements of the auctioneer, they say:

    "The auctioneer may open bidding on behalf of the seller by placing several consecutive bids or by placing bids in response to other bids up to the amount of the reserve."

    The statement of "High Bid was XXX" does NOT mean that there were any real bidders. It is very misleading when the report states "The high bid of XX should have been enough for a sale" or similar.

    Many times there is no one bidding---and the auction company can get away with it because of the terms written in the catalog & explained (Usually quite quickly) by the auctioneer before
    the sale actually starts. Next time you are watching an auction, listen CAREFULLY to the opening comments.

    Ken Goldman
     
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  11. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Coincidentally my copy of the current Panorama (Porsche Club of America's excellent magazine) arrived today. The Type 64 is the cover car and gets no less than 14 pages (!) of coverage. The article is very informative and the photography is first class. Apparently the car's shepherd at RMS was Marcus Görig.
     
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  12. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    Great explanation Ken. Few on this forum seem to comprehend this.
     
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  13. Ferrari 308 GTB

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    Then you add in the number of friends/associates of the seller bidding up to just below the reserve..makes you wonder where the real market is for a whole lot of cars.
     
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  14. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    I agree. I still think the guy from Texas last year at RMS Monterey paid too high on the CLK-GTR he got for $4.5. He was very vocal during bidding the car was "coming to Texas." I had a feeling the competing bids were placed by someone on the auction house/buyer's side to get it up to that...
     
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  15. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

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    Once you take the speculators/flippers/dealers out of the auction room who is left?

    Maybe some very wealthy folks who can pay whatever if they really want it .

    Anyone there to just buy and use it ? You know, the average car guy.
     
  16. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    Plus alcohol. Lots of that around. :)
     
  17. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #243 miurasv, Aug 24, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
    Shill bidding for car auctions, or any auction, should be banned and is actually prohibited on Ebay. However, although people have been prosecuted in the UK law courts for shill bidding on Ebay, I do not know the extent to which Ebay enforce their own rules regarding this practice.

    Ebay shill bidding policy.
     
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  18. italiancars

    italiancars Formula 3

    Apr 18, 2004
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    The auction houses have been known to place a couple of shill bidders in the audience creating active bidding back and forth between the shills trying to suck in a legit bidder that’s usually fueled by a few drinks and an ego to impress his weekend showpiece.
     
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  19. hans2

    hans2 Karting
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    But with an opening bid of $30MM (per the board and his then still clear pronunciation) he was well past the presumed reserve, and all thus all subsequent fake bids to $50-$70MM were a violation of their own service terms. While there's an uncomfortable tolerance for the house bidding to reserve, anything beyond that, as occurred here, should be countered with some type of disciplinary action. Perhaps auction license suspension.
     
  20. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

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    I’m not sure whether anyone in the market for a Ferrari qualifies as an “average” car guy, but...

    ...having been to just a handful of auctions, I’ve already encountered some folks who were looking over cars carefully (often with a consultant in tow), then put in bids, and on at least one occasion that I noticed, actually got a car.

    I accidentally caught the recording of the Mecum Daytona bidding, and the guy who won there looked very much like someone who just bought the car for his personal use/collection... I can’t speak to whether he fell into the “very wealthy folks” category, but wealthy folks can be “car guys” too... :)
     
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  21. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

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    That is a tangible hair cut; as I said, I imagine there is some remorse at the no-reserve. Hope the car does not show-up at some dealer, and then sell for an extra $50k-$100k-or-something...

    That said, I tend to think of “time capsules” as something that is sort of a preservation-class car, and a full repaint basically disqualifies this car. Also, looking at the pics more carefully, it seemed pretty clear that the engine bay had been redone, and books/tools also looked like a bit of a mish-mash. The unremarkable selling price would seem to indicate that the folks who were bidding viewed the car as “partially restored, and in need of more work to make perfect,” rather than a “time capsule.”

    Probably not completely fair, because I agree that the car looks like it is “all there” and “not mucked with,” and that is certainly not true of a lot of cars.
     
  22. Challenge64

    Challenge64 F1 Veteran
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    I know the buyer. Car will not be showing up at a dealer in a few months as it is going to a pretty significant collection.
     
  23. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    I agree with the sentiment but I recall a Sports Car Market article a decade ago that noted it was illegal in Arizona where Scottsdale was then almost as big as Monterey with Barrett Jackson selling $100 mm worth per year. I understand that state law in New York where the majority of the multi billion modern art industry is it is still illegal despite Chuck Schumer trying to get a law banning it enacted but the auctioneer must post notices in the room stating it is being used. I am trying to check what California state law says.
     
  24. Vintage V12

    Vintage V12 Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2004
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    The 275 GTB 08603 sat for sale at RM for over a year asking 2.3M. It now sold at the Monterey 2019 auction under 2M. It looked like a great car. Any reason it sold at this price? Seems like a good value?
     

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