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Mission Impossible!

Discussion in '206/246' started by sturrisi, Apr 11, 2021.

  1. sturrisi

    sturrisi Rookie
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    Apr 24, 2007
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    So far the restoration of #02868 has been slow but progressing.

    I have now reached a stumbling block for which I can't see how to proceed. The issue is the removal of the doors and after several attempts I still can't see how to remove the door hinge pins.

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    Help is desperately require from all out there in "Dino land" who have done it before. Is there a special tool required? Help, Help, Help.
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  3. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    The pins are driven out upwards with a drift, very awkward but doable. The top pin can sometimes get close to the door skin but it does wiggle out eventually.

    Try to avoid stainless steel pins when you refit as these can wear out the actual steel hinges rather than the intended sacrificial pin.
    tony
     
  4. sturrisi

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    Thanks Tony,
    The problem seems to be trying to get alignment. The curvature of the door skin get in the way of aligning a straight hit. Any suggestions?
    regards Sam
     
  5. sturrisi

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    Should I be trying to remove the top or the bottom pin first or does it make no difference? Should the door be jacked up slightly to take the pressure of the door weight off the pin?
    Sam
     
  6. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

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    It doesnt make to much difference with the doors i have taken off but anything is worth a try. Definately take the weight of the doors and get both pins moving before removing them altogether. A small set of grips clamped on the top of the pin and rotated back and forth may loosen them up.

    I used a long drift tool to go beyond the lower door skin, the top skin needs a much smaller drift. Dont burr over the pin otherwise you will struggle big time. Once moving they do come out OK.

    You need a bucket load of patience as well
    Good luck
    Tony
     
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  8. Nuvolari

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    #6 Nuvolari, Apr 11, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
    Those pins can be a real bear to take out and Tony has offered some excellent advice. I will mirror his suggestion to make no effort to save the original pins. They will be destroyed and you will likely even need to oversize the replacements. The real challenge is in getting good direct hammer blows on the pins to force them out.

    One thing I have done is to weld a bolt to the end of the pin and then use a slide hammer to pull the pin out. Often times in these cases the more you prep the less drama you have during the extraction. You can approach the issue by just struggling like crazy and making tiny gains over time or (as I prefer) think about the problem and take the time to build a tool that will make your life easier. That said these pins are always a struggle to get out.

    It does not matter which pin you take out first but be sure to have two pins in at all times until you are ready to move the door. Once you get one pin out, sand it down a little, grease it well and then re-insert it while you work on the other one. Only when both pins are free should you look at pulling the door. Also on the Dino the door comes incredibly close to the front wing at some parts of the swing so be sure to plan your door removal as it is VERY easy to contact the two when removing or even worse when installing a freshly painted door.

    Here is a link to a video where the pins on a Miura are being struggled with. I'm sure you'll draw some inspiration from their battle.

     
  9. GIOTTO

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  10. dgt

    dgt Formula 3
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    Hi Sam,
    I've removed about 8 of these stuck pins on Dinos, this is what I do.
    Put some penetrating oil on them.

    Try to remove the bottom pin first from underneath with a long drift, I see you have all the trim off the sill panels which is good.
    If you have trouble keeping the drift in place or it starts to mushroom (bad) then drill a pilot hole in the bottom of the pin, just past the point it goes into the hinge. This will give a strong locating point on the pin so you can hit it with a drift. Heavy hammer, firm hit. Once it starts moving it should come out ok.
    Only issue I see is you have limited space under the stands, if you can, try to get the body higher to allow a good swing. At this point of disassembly, I put mine on a rotisserie or mid rise lift to do these jobs.

    Top pin is a different story as you can't get to it in the middle.
    I cut the top off the top pin with a small reciprocating saw drill a pilot hole in the top with a long drill bit and hit with a drift. Unfortunately, the body is in the way so you can't get the drift straight inline with the pin but with a pilot hole it should be OK.

    Strong heat from a torch can help but you'll burn up the paint, fire risk etc. etc.

    I've tried other methods, like a torch and making a press for the top hinge but the above seems to work best for pins which are rusted solid. You might get lucky and some move easily.

    cheers Andrew
     
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  11. dgt

    dgt Formula 3
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    .. Just recalled, for removing the top pin with the bottom one removed, you could first try a 40cm long m8 drift coming up underneath through the bottom hinge holes to locate on the bottom of the top pin. I used some hardened steel stock for this.
     
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  13. pshoejberg

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    The tool below worked like a charm on my stuck Dino pins. It's an air driven chisel (China quality & price) with a modified driver (Homemade). This tool can be controlled very accurately avoiding hammer blows hitting and damaging the fender structure. My pins were stuck like if they were welded in place but came out without any damage made to the hinges or surrounding structure. Good luck.

    Best, Peter

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  14. Nuvolari

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    Peter again you outsmarted the rest of us. That is a brilliantly simple and I am certain super effective solution.
     
  15. dgt

    dgt Formula 3
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    Solves the issue of not having enough space under the car! Nice.
     
  16. sturrisi

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    Guys you all have been terrific and I greatly appreciate all of the input you have provided. It's great to know that you are not alone in this big world and that there are lots of people with the knowledge and are ready to share. Thank you very much.

    Now that I have some real ammunition to play with, I will have further attempts. Maybe the week-end. Thank you a lot.

    I rather like Peter's pin extraction tool. It looks like a neat and clean way to do the job, but a question for Peter. How do you stop it from bouncing about when you trigger the air chisel?

    Sam
     
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  17. pshoejberg

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    It's a long time ago but I seems to remember that it was controllable until the pin was below the hinge edge and hence guided by the hinge. Alternatively you can drill a small shallow hole in the pin end to seat the driver in. It might also be possible to place a small bushing on the pin end to kind of connect the driver to the pin. Look into your junk box and see what you have available and improvise.

    Best, Peter
     
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  18. daviekj

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    Not tried any of these but interested in the discussion as no doubt one day I will need to. If you don’t have one of Peter’s air guns, I wonder if a DIY SDS in hammer mode with suitably formed punch would work similarly.
    Kevin
     
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  19. possum

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    These are a pain to get out great suggestions by everyone, my first priority which has already been suggested is soak the pins frequently with a good lubricating oil I use good old WD 40 over a couple of days the pins have a grease nipple on top if I remember correctly remove the nipple and soak down the hole and around where the pin and hinge meet open and close door during this time will allow better penetration place a few rags under bottom hinge to catch excess run off,Good luck you will get them out eventually.
     
  20. sturrisi

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    Kevin,
    Actually, I do have an air impact chisel (also China quality), similar to Peter's which I have had for more than 20 years and have never used. Maybe this is my big chance! I've oiled it up and it still works.
    I would think any impact device would work in the same way but the issue is not so much how to drive the pin out but the curvature of the door does not allow a straight drift to be aligned to the pin. It can only be approached at best at an angle of about 20 to 25 degrees. If you do get some movement, it can only be the bit of the pin that is protruding.

    Sam
     
  21. sturrisi

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    Mission Impossible has become a little less impossible. I have managed to remove the top pin on the left hand door. One down, 3 to go. Not easy!!

    Sam
     
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  22. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

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    During the OMGjon restoration where Steve Kouracos, The Surface Master, performed the paint he showed a photo of a double bent drift that was almost "Lazy Z" shaped that he specifically used on the door pins. I can't seem to find a photo of it, but it was a very clever tool
     
  23. sturrisi

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    Thanks Scott, I'm still struggling to remove the other 3 pins. They are really stuck hard and don't want to budge at all. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. If you can post a picture or a drawing of the bent drift, I could try to reproduce it. Help is still needed. Many thanks to all.
    Sam
     
  24. sturrisi

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    Using the air chisel as Peter suggested, did not work for me. It was too hard to control. The end just bounced about too much.
     
  25. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

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    #22 synchro, Apr 15, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
    Fully understand your hesitation.
    My driver's side pin was only able to be coaxed up an inch with my drift and then no further. After knowing I was stuck & weighing the options, I then cut off the head and pound it downwards which came out.

    PS - when the car comes back from paint, make sure you hog out the holes and test fit the new door hinge pins BEFORE you do a final install. The holes will fill during the painting process and you don't want a new pin seizing halfway down the install. The only thing worse than taking out old pins before a restoration is having to take new ones out after painting because they're oversized


    How OMGjon did it
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/dino-restoration.94232/page-9#post-135791303
     
  26. pshoejberg

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    Have you tried to play around with air pressure / flow?. Installing a bushing above the pin end should stabilize everything. Just tag weld the bushing insitu and grind it off afterwards. It's all about guiding the forces in the right direction to avoid damaging anything else than the pin. There is now "nice" way of doing this job anyway so you need the paint brush out of the drawer regardless of method. Last resort is extreme heat (gas & acetylene) and hammer blows or cutting action and subsequent repair and that is not an preferred direction for now.

    Best, Peter
     
  27. pshoejberg

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  28. sturrisi

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    Peter, Thank you for your helpful suggestions. I did spend some time on it today and with the helpful hands of my wife, we managed to shift 2 more hinge pins, the last pin is still a challenge which we have put off for another day.
    You can eat an elephant, just a bite at a time. I don't think the remaining pin is going to come out without at lot more persuasion than given so far. Probably going to need a sledgehammer!! Welding a small bush to help control the point of impact as you suggest, sounds like a good idea.
    Sam
     
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