Michelin vs Pirelli, Super Sport vs P-Zero

Tire Rack is not the beginning and the end of all things. What I am purporting is supported by their market placing (i.e. their pricing) and subsequently by how their manufacturers promote them. I stand by my comparison.

 

Not in Texas. I like the Pzeros because they are grippy when hot and I don't have trouble getting them hot unless it's below 50F but that's only a few weeks of the year. The rest of the time, they are very grippy but it's true that you need to drive carefully when it's cold.

 

I have PZeros on my 911 - Michelin not available when I needed to replace them - and this has been my experience as well, great when it's hot, loses a good bit of grip when it gets closer to 10 C / 50 F. Below these temps, or wet, and it's pickup truck driving weather...T

 

For Michelin PS4S, for the fronts on an F12 in the larger 265, Tire Rack has 3 choices/spec: MO (Mercedes), NO (Porsche), and no designation.

Which is the best match for the 315 rear which is K1 Ferrari spec? I heard avoid the MO, but what about the other two?

Thanks,
DL

 

As I’ve discussed before the standard OEM P Zero are crap on the track- tread too deep and compound doesn’t handle heat well at all. The Corsas are a much better track tire and handle heat/pressures well. The OEM would only last a weekend on the track (along with brakes).

As far as routine road use the biggest gripe I had with the standard P0 on both my F12 and 812 is the vibration after even just one track weekend-typically heard from the empty passenger seat. And apparently a known issue even in non high mileage cars. My F12 had 2300 mi when I called in and the service advisor immediately suggested new tires. And he was right. My 812 is on its third set of tires (1400 mi total/1200 track) and the Corsas are vibrating the passenger seat (quite a bit) after 2 track weekends.

I don’t recall ever having vibration issues with Cup 2s on my GT3 RS even with a much stiffer chassis, half cage, Sabelt seats, etc but I don’t drive it on the street. FWIW none of the track tires are worth a lick on the street when not up to temps.


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Avoid mixing OE stuff, especially Merc stuff. Use general purpose MPS4S 265 up front and K1 315 in the back.

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Which MPSS do you have? In the rear? Do They say K1 or K2?

Tyres need time to break in, so wait few hundred miles before they are on point.

Now that being said, there are a few things that might be the cause of this. The F12 MPSS has been discontinued a while back, so there is a chance that you have gotten some shelf tyres that are somewhat old. There is a production date on the tyres. After two years on the shelf, tyres start to get hard.

There is another thing that could be the culprit ofcthat added noise. If your rears are the K1 spec, you have not gotten the F12 tyre, but the 599GTO tyre. This tyre is nothing like the regular MPSS. It is shaved, has fewer grooves, it has a stiffer sidewall and a compound more similar to a Cup 2. The GTO tyre is not targeted towards comfort in any way shape or form by comparison.

So check which variant you have and how old they are. In worst case, you have gotten a set of 2015-2017 shoes, which means thay are already close to being done because of age.

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Problem is that it's such a narrow window. You can get the Pirellis hot in hot climates, but it is very hard in most cases. On the flip side, if you take a Pzero on track, it is torn apart in short order. So difficult to heat up on the street, yet not suited for the track.

It is also worth noting that if we compare the newer models of both, the gap in the upper temp range has been closed. The MPS4S fair better than the MPSS in the 45-55 degree range, which is were the difference between MPSS and PZ3 mainly was. Take both above 60 C and it all starts to fall apart. The PZ4 starts to come on at around 40-45 C which means it still has a fairly narrow window, whereas the MPS4S comes on and stays on from about 30-32 C

Keeping a tyre above 45 C on many public roads will require a pretty spirited firm of driving. This is also why a Cup 2 makes zero sense unless you track. People order them for their F8 at a stupid high premium from Ferrari and are made to think it's just a better performig shoe overall. But fact is that unless you get it above 55 C the MPS4S and PMSS will outrun it. My Cup 2 tyres only really start to shine when I get into the 70-75 C range, and that would mean jail or death on public roads.

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From memory, the F12 front is 255/35/20. Why are you planning on 265? That being said, the 255 Michelin is only available as a non-specific tyre, rather than K1, K2 or whatever.

 

The reasoning behind the 265 MPS4S is simple.
The. OE MPSS had an insanely wide tread for a 255 tyre - much wider than the general purpose MPSS 255. The general purpose MPß4S run on the narrow side of things and thus is not directly comparable to the K2. The MPS4S 315 K1 has the same tread width as the K2 MPSS, so teamed up with the general purpose 265 you end up with a front to rear bias that is as close to OE as possible.
The 265 is a great fit for the F12, and so is the full 812 set for those wanting a bit less understeer and neutral handling.

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Now that temps are dropping in Northern Europe, would it be fair to say that P-Zero and MPSS are all equally poor on damp roads, with ambient temps between 5-10C?

I'm experiencing very poor traction in 3rd gear and wondering if the tyre change from my F8 that came with MPSS, to Spider with P-Zero is as a factor, or if its predominantly the lower temps and conditions?

I'm know memebers such as @REALZEUS and @Il Co-Pilota will have more experience than me, so input welcome



Edit, apologies for mixing model a little, but the question is more tyre related.

 

Temps below 10 C can be a problem on dry roads, and on damp roads, it's a total unknown. Even the Lusso with its 4RM system cannot work proparly at those temps and with damp roads in WET. It's not what the tyres were designed for.

If you want to run at those temps, get the right shoes for the job. It will make the car a lot more enjoyable.

 

Yup, once you're into single figure temperatures as well as damp surfaces, leaves etc then you're not on the right rubber, regardless of which brand. My experience is that Michelin will heat faster and so tolerate colder temperatures in a more friendly way but still aren't great. Pirelli work super well when warm, better than most but you won't get them warm on a colder day. I therefore swap wheels onto Pirelli Sottozero winter tyres once we get to below 10 every day, which is around about now, maybe a couple more weeks max. I just don't see why anyone would spend large sums on a powerful car and not ride on the best rubber for the circumstances. It doesn't cost more as while you wear one set, the other is not being worn, so you're not really spending anything much.

 

Especially true in the UK I have found. I Switch from Pirelli to Michelin Alpins in the winter. The PZs that my FF came with were lethal when was a build-up of leaves on an even slightly damp road.

 

I really respect Il Co-Pilota, he is hugely knowledgeable and he seems like a lovely chap. We have a slight difference of opinion though. I live in southern Europe now, so I get to warm my tyres easily, thus I love Pirellis. The Michelins sometimes get "waxy" under pressure, when the weather is hot (mind you, Bridgestones are great in such conditions). It really depends on your environment.

 

Thank you all.

A lot of variables were introduced in a very short time, plus a relative surge in mileage, as I enjoyed the open top.

Will source a 2nd set of wheels and winter rubber.

 

I moved from the Eastern Mediterranean last year, all a bit of a shock to the system this cold tyre malarky

 

Truth be told, the hot summers disagree with my northern idiosyncrasy. One of the many reasons I don't get people who like open top cars. They are useless when it's cold, they are useless when it's hot and they are just heavy, and deadly, when they overturn...

 

I agree actually, I had a Maserati MC Stradale which had Pirelli Corsa on it and on trips to Italy, South of France tec, the Pirelli were superb. It's the Uk and North Europe weather where the high temperature don't hhapen often enough and on the 10to20 degree days, the Michelin are more assured. If I lived in warmer climates, I'm confident I would be happy on Pirelli. On track, the Michelin will make create some marbles on the surface when hot and move around more than the Pirelli.

 

My thoughts exactly. It always amazes me when people are so complimentary towards Michelins, which I don't really like. Then I remind myself that they probably live in colder climates.

 

My issue with the Pirellis have nothing to do with their temp abilities. I actually daily Cup 2 on the 488 Spider which needs more heat then both MPS4 and PZ4, so that's not it. I have PZ4 on a few cars and the issues I find, relates to tramlining, noise, lack of wet weather handling (also on hot days), flat spotting and durability.

We have pretty good roads here in Scandinavia and northern Europe, and yet tramlining is still an issue. Even the Cup 2 tyre tramlines a lot less. Often you find yourself putting the car into bumpy road mode, just to eliminate the hunting. It's the same in the 812 GTS. Way too much and totally unacceptable. Wet weather grip is on par with Cup 2's, but this is laughable as it is a full on street tyre. And sadly, in the wet, both MPSC2 and MPS4S has a much nicer and more progressive breakaway. Quality is a joke. The 812 shoes I have are manufactured in late 2020. They are already showing the classic Pirelli sidewall cracks. Both MPS4S and MPSC2's I can park for a month, and zero flat spotting. PZ4 flat spot in 3-4 days. I find zero redeeming features about the Pirellis. If climate is too hot for M0S4S, get the Cup 2. That said, my experience from driving the Michelins in hot climates is this. Drop the tyre pressure a bit. Both the MPS4S and Cup 2 likes a bit less pressure than what Ferrari recommends. On the 488, F8 and Pistas, a hot pressure squared of abot 2.15 bar works really well. What seems to happen is that the Michelins tend to "spike" a bit easier once pressure gets into the 2 3-2.4 realm. This is a bad cycle where higher temps increase pressure, which in turn increase temps. Furthermore, it reduces tread patch, and the tyre feels stiff, skittish and greasy. Don't worry too much about setti g the cold pressure. Go drive like you normally would for 30 minutes, pull over and set pressures to about 2.1. Tyres will run cooler and stay more consistent when you push the car a bit.

Ferrari suck at three things.

Paint QC
Setting alignment
Speccing proper tyre pressures

So pressure is where it is at.

The Pirelli quality is not there, but I suppose that's an issue related to it being a Chinese based company these days.



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That is very interesting, particularly re the tyre pressures.

I've just compared to my Huracan EVO RWD - why would 2x pretty similar cars have such different pressure specs, when on the same size rims and tyres?

F8 Tributo: Front 30.5psi/2.1bar, Rear 29.0psi/2.0bar
Evo RWD: Front 35.0psi/2.4bar, Rear 32.0psi, 2.2bar

Thats +15% front, +10% rear?

Am I right in thinking lower pressure heats faster, due to tread block movement? What is the trade-off though?

 

I agree that open top cars are useless in the heat, as you sweat and have no sun cover. In the cold they are much better, 5C a gilet/beanie and its quite enjoyable to breath the crisp cold morning air tbh.

 

I run PZ4s on my 812 and when I bought it my knee jerk reaction was to change the tyres for Michelins. However I never got around to it and gave the Pirellis a chance. I've driven in torrential rain and found them fine in terms of being resistant to aquaplaning especially compared to the Michelin Cup 2s in my RS WP which are very prone to aquaplane.
Still think that the 812 should be shod with proper winter tyres if living in a colder climate ie under 10 degrees C for most of the winter. I agree with Real Zeus that the MP4Ss are not ideal for hard driving on hot days where I think the Pirellis are a better tyre. The MP4Ss are unbelievable in wet conditions and offer great feel and grip giving confidence to drive much faster than either of the other two mentioned.

 

I agree with this. Driving with the top down on cold sunny crisp days is one of life's greatest pleasures. On hot days or in hotter climates they are actually a recipe for skin cancer and not very pleasant. On hot days I love driving with the windows all the way down but mine is a Superfast not a GTS so I have no choice in the matter.