Michelin vs Pirelli, Super Sport vs P-Zero | FerrariChat

Michelin vs Pirelli, Super Sport vs P-Zero

Discussion in 'FF/Lusso' started by axis007, Mar 28, 2019.

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  1. axis007

    axis007 Karting

    Jan 6, 2004
    83
    i just replaced my P-Zero (80% treadlife, 2 years old) with brand new Michelin Super Sport, I notice the Michelin’s are louder in road noise and rides a bit stiffer than the Pirelli, although the traction and grip is substantially better than the P-Zero. Am I smoking crack or are others here have similar experince?
     
  2. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    A brand new tyre will always have better traction than a 2 year-old. Were the Pirellis PZ4s or 3s?
     
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  3. j09333

    j09333 Formula 3

    May 7, 2004
    1,142
    Pirelli is sensitive to temperature. But when it is hot, grip is fantastic. Poor when rain or cold.
    Michelin is better all around as normal daily use.

    When on track, road tires are road tires and they both don't hold well and don't last long.
     
  4. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
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    Feb 24, 2016
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    You didn't mention what's the Ferrari model you have but my experience with the F12 was as follows. I had a set of relatively new P Zeros and changed them for the MPSS last year. Found the MPSS less noisy and I noticed less vibration above 200 Km/hour . In terms of grip in dry and wet conditions they are much better.
    Once with the P Zeros I had a very frightening incident of loss of grip while overtaking two cars on a dry road where some sections of the asphalt are polished. With the MPSS i passed many times since in the same road sections and despite putting the accelerator to the bottom and generating maximum torque the tires never lost grip like it happened with the P Zeros.
     
  5. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,280
    If we compare apples to apples, meaning the latest M street tire with the latest P street tire, I found the M was the better of the two.

    The M 4S M Is arguably the best of what is offered today
     
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  6. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    The Pirellis need heating up. They are superior to the Michelins when warm, whereas the french tyres are better from the go. Many people don't realise this and think that the Michelins are grippier, just because they never bring their tyres up to proper temperatures.
     
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  7. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    Inarguably though, the Pirellis are quicker when warmed up.
     
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  8. Outrun

    Outrun Karting

    Which is almost never in normal use. On a track day, maybe, 99% of the time though the Michelin is leagues ahead. Pirelli makes the same tyre across a number of locations without marking the origin so you can get variance between tyres that look and price identically. For most people that use their cars in various temperatures and normal road scenarios, the Michelin is far superior.

    I’ve a friend who has for 25 years run a Le Mans endurance team for Ferrari and he will tell you that even on track, the Pirelli products are inconsistent and not to choose their road tyres. I took off the P Zeros that my car came on after less then 500 miles as in the cool and damp, they were simply dangerous.

    Of course everyone likes different feel and I understand why some may like the Pirelli but for most, the PS4s is the way to go.
     
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  9. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    I find it quite easy to bring them up to temperature, provided you drive spiritedly. The new PZ4 also gets excellent reviews.
     
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  10. papou

    papou Formula 3
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    May 18, 2012
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    I have f12 and FF friends who changed to Kumho and like them I stick with OEM.And these guys aren’t cheap interesting.
     
  11. Ferro458

    Ferro458 Karting

    May 26, 2014
    188
    Here are the test results from Tire Rack, the Michelins are the clear winner:

    The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S received the highest subjective score from our testers in every criterion, but was particularly favored for its handling. The weight and build-up of steering effort felt perfectly natural, and response to inputs was millimeter-precise without being overly sensitive. Ride quality and relatively low noise were also strong points for the Pilot Sport 4S, with a firm, composed ride that reduced impacts to a single event and no intrusive tones over the varied surfaces of our route.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    This is not apples to apples though. The plain PZ4 is the entry level Pirelli sport tyre. Its equivalents are the plain PS4 (i.e. not S) and the SportContact 6. The PZ4 Corsa is the equivalent of the PS4S and the ExtremeContact. I am talking more about the numbers, as driving feeling is subjective.
     
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  13. Corsair66

    Corsair66 Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2016
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    Clermont, FL
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    Ken
    FWIW, I loved the PS4S on my F430. They warmed up quickly for street tires, had great grip, and did well in the wet. I'd love to put them on the 812 I'm about to order, but I don't think Michelin has the rears available in the OEM size yet.
     
  14. R J

    R J Formula Junior

    May 17, 2017
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    Looks like you can get them for the forged wheel. This photos shows the Michelin tyres fitted to a car for sale at an Australian Ferrari Dealer.
     
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  15. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    #15 Lukeylikey, Apr 3, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
    I am quite surprised at those test results. I also tend to prefer Michelin - the MPSC2 on my Speciale are just amazing. I also hated the old P Zero which I had on FF and a 997 and they were simply terrible in colder temperatures. But the new P Zero on my 488 I have to say is excellent.

    Manufacturers, especially of high performance cars, do thousands of hours of chassis development and tune cars to a specific tyre. Therefore it is quite difficult to make tyre tests perfectly comparable since a standard car is always used (usually a Golf or a Ford in Europe) and the chassis spec of that car will have a bearing on how the tyre performs. It is much more relevant to try different tyres on your own car to see which one feels and works best. I also think you have to be pretty careful in changing from OEM spec since some very smart people spent a long time ensuring the spring rates and rebound work perfectly with the tyre wall stiffness, its roll characteristics and grip coefficient. It is highly technical and really very very complex. They literally design a car to work with a certain tyre and therefore you shouldn’t mess around as a rule. The exception would be when a tyre is invented after the car and it is a significant improvement. A notable example of this is the MPSS for the CGT which is a well recognised tyre upgrade that calms the handling of that car down really well (though whether Porsche agree is another matter - I know and work with many development engineers and they are very sniffy about customers wanting to second guess their development and choose a different tyre to the one they spec.).

    I have copied a test from a key UK magazine - sister to one of the key German magazines. It makes my point well I think. The Michelin and Pirelli are within half a percent of each other (and neither tyre wins) but they each have differing characteristics. These are factored into the chassis development of any car that uses them. Manufacturers use many different suppliers to build their suspensions and to change all those means they lose all their ‘learning’ to date. Therefore certain tyres tend to be preferred by certain manufacturers because their development teams can get them to work best with their suspensions with whatever handling characteristics they are aiming for. And a half-percent overall performance difference on a car they don’t make is simply irrelevant to them.

    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/accessories-tyres/91870/tyre-test-2018-results-by-category
     
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  16. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
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    Thank you for posting such a straight forward and complete test comparison. The test confirms in every department the differences I felt when I changed on my F12 the PZeros to the MPSS.
     
  17. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    It's not that surprising, given that they pitted the standard PZ4 against the stickier PS4S and ExtremeContact, which are PZ4 Corsa's competitors.

    Evo Magazine has found that the standard PZ4 is quicker/stickier than the standard PS4: http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2017-EVO-Summer-Tyre-Test.htm
     
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  18. Makuono

    Makuono Formula Junior
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    Feb 15, 2014
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    I think the biggest problem with the PZeros belongs in the marketing dept, since PIRELLI uses the same name without clearly mentioning the tire version.

    IMO this creates confusion, since most of us complaining about PZeros are in fact complaining about the old PZeros 3 (which is a 2007 tire?). I also had these on my Ferrari and of course I felt a huge difference once I changed them for the newer Michelins.

    I guess I would have felt similar difference if I changed the PZeros 3 to the PZeros 4 - which weren't available at that time. The newer PZ4 were launched in 2016. I will try them next time.

    Michelin appears to have a better approach with its branding since it clearly sets each generation of its tires by giving them a new name - MPSS > MPS4, avoiding confusion.
     
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  19. otakki

    otakki Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2016
    1,623
    Sorry for going off topic: How's Conti's product consistency compared to Pirelli?
     
  20. unotaz

    unotaz Formula Junior

    Jun 4, 2006
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    Michael
    No, this is incorrect.

    Standard PZeros = PS4S.
    PZero Corsa = PS Cup 2
    Trofeo R = PS Cup 2 R

    Basically Michelin makes the better tires in every category. :)

     
  21. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    Isn’t that also incorrect? Those Michelin tyres were launched a generation after the Pirellis you mentioned? A Cup2 is a much better tyre than a PZC but it is much newer. The Trofeo R was the daddy as far as track grip was concerned (better even than the Cup2 which was its real competitor) but the Cup2R has only just been released. These products overlap and despite the naming it could be argued you are placing the wrong competitors against each other.
     
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  22. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    No, not really.
    The entry-level UHP tyre of Pirelli is the PZ4; Michelin's is the PS4. The PZ4 is the better tyre.
    The PZ4 Corsa and the PS4S are their more aggressive iterations, both branded as road tyres. The Corsa is the better tyre.
    Both the Torfeo and the Cup 2 are categorised as track tyres, listed on the motorsport web sites of their manufacturers. The Trofeo was until now the undisputed king of the track. It just happens that Michelin just launched an even more aggressive Cup 2 R model, that may or many not be quicker than the Trofeo. Pirelli will surely respond with a new Trofeo, since the current one is on the market for a few years now.
     
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  23. Makuono

    Makuono Formula Junior
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    Well, truth to be told, both brands excel at their business and products are very good.

    Usually Michelin and Pirelli performance tire launches are offset, probably the best tire is the newer, whatever the brand is.

    Maybe the best practice is to buy the product from the company who has its vision/mission more in line with each buyer. ;)

    Basically, the difference between the two brands is:

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    :D
     
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  24. unotaz

    unotaz Formula Junior

    Jun 4, 2006
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    Los Angeles
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    Michael
    Whether the Cup 2 tires was released a generation after the Corsa is irrelevant, because both brand of tires went through several generations of updates.

    The Corsa tires, it too went through several generations of update in compound. For example, the Corsa tires on my F12 TDF is 4 generations newer than the Corsa tires on my 360 CS. Trust me, although both is on Corsa, I can tell you from experience, the difference between them is night and day.

    If you look at Porsche's Cup 2 tires, the N0 Cup 2 on my 918 is first gen and the Cup 2 tires on my GT2RS is third gen with the marking N2. Cup 2 R tires is a complete new tire that is designed to compete with the Trofeo R.

    Same thing with my 458 Speciale and 488 Pista. Although they use the same Cup 2 tires, the Pista version is a full generation ahead with better compound.

     
  25. unotaz

    unotaz Formula Junior

    Jun 4, 2006
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    #25 unotaz, Apr 4, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
    You are missing the standard PZero ;)

    Pzero (PZ4) competes with PS4 (Max Performance Summer)
    PZero (standard) competes with PS4S (Max Performance Summer)
    Pzero Corsa competes with Cup 2 (Streetable Track & Competition)
    Trofeo R competes with Cup 2 R (Streetable Track & Competition)

    Please check on Tirerack:

    https://www.tirerack.com/tires/pirelli-tires.jsp

    Again, I wish to reiterate that Michelin pretty much makes the better tire in each category. PS4S offers better grip and longer thread-ware (300 vs. 220) than the standard PZero. Cup 2 offers better grip and thread-ware (180 vs. 60) than the Corsa. Cup 2 R is faster than the Trofeo R with the same thread-ware.

     

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