Joe, I'm guessing Geno's pretty young. Today's youth scare me, anyone else see the Journal article on the entitled generation in the workplace? When the car you already have depends upon your next smart move, well, you can see what happened to all of those smart guys who bet the homes they live in on the same. At least it's just a car note. I know of guys who have their family's future staked on selling cars they currently own. Cars they mortgaged their homes to buy and put their kid's college funds into! What I hear over and over from young owners is that the wealthy haven't been hurt much. Those words vcould only be uttered by the young who have never been wealthy but they seem to really believe this. It's going to be a hard fall for those who were not around for other cycles.
Joe, I absolutely agree with your assessment. This should apply to the most people. Those that try to bite more than they can handle. I am not going to email you my PFS, but lets just say that ALL my monthly expenses are well covered my others. These happen to be my tenants that are part of well seasoned well positioned real estate holdings. If I was to pay cash for all my toys, there would be too much opportunity costs by not putting the funds into play. I have no intention to sell any of my cars (no cut-price sales here) and therefore will not be effecting the non-finances cars out there that you described. Beside the Carrera GT, I am financing a few other cars out all the cars I own and have no worries in doing so. In fact come to think about it, a few of my car enthusiast friends who can easily afford to pay cash for the few $100K-$250K+ cars that are their daily drivers and/or in their collections tend to finance them as well. I will need to get their take on why they do it. As far as my strategy being flawed, it does not appear so. I think one's investment strategy, risk threshold and time horizon need to be part of their business practice. My business model has a proven track record for well over 12 years. It's been good to me and I have no reason to change it. By the way, if every one took the conservative approach in collector car ownership and payed cash for their cars, Putnam, Woodside Credit and other banks would not be around would they? Cheers, Gene.
It looks to me like downward pressure of 20% to 30%, with the McClaren and the TDF being the two exceptions. Agree or not?
Great summary in the Oz section http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=138154166#post138154166
All the results of the London Auction are here: http://www.rmauctions.com/auctionresults.cfm?SaleCode=LF08 Most were sold at the lower end of estimates... Top Sales: 1997 McLaren F1 £2.530.000 1959 Ferrari 250 GT Tour de France Berlinetta £2.255.000 1965 Ferrari 250 LM Berlinetta £2.255.000 1938 Horch 853 Special Roadster £1.127.500 1938 Bugatti Type 57C Atalante £660.000 1966 Ferrari 275 GTB/4 Berlinetta £577.500 1950 Talbot-Lago Type 26 Grand Sport Coupe £312.500 1965 Ferrari 275 GTS £300.000 1961 Aston Martin DB4 GT Zagato Recreation £330.000 1996 Ferrari F50 £319.000
`Charlie's Angels' Ferrari Flops at London Sale as Buyers Balk 2008-10-30 04:11:25.730 GMT By Scott Reyburn Oct. 30 (Bloomberg) -- A red Ferrari convertible sports-car driven by Cameron Diaz in a ``Charlie's Angels'' movie failed to sell at a London auction of classic cars last night, falling victim to the financial crisis that's curbed demand for luxuries. The Ferrari, one of the last three short-wheel-base examples of the 250 GT California Spyder built, had a presale estimate of 3 million pounds ($5 million), said host RM Auctions. The sale, held in association with Sotheby's, raised 14.7 million pounds including fees, according to Max Girardo, an RM Auctions automobile specialist. That compares with the low estimate of 20 million. The equivalent sale last year fetched 18 million pounds. ``It's definitely more cautious,'' said Girardo. ``A certain number of buyers have been cut out of the market. A year ago, they would've thought about buying a car for 50,000 pounds, now they're not being paid a bonus or are worried about losing their job.'' In May, at a joint RM and Sotheby's sale in Italy, a Nero- black 1961 Ferrari 250 GT SWB California Spyder formerly owned by the Hollywood actor James Coburn sold for a record 7 million euros ($9.2 million). The price -- the highest ever at auction for a car -- was paid by U.K. television and radio host Chris Evans. Last night, 30 percent of the 129 lots were unsold. Girardo said the auction house, aware of the difficult economic conditions, had contacted consignors before the sale to ask them to cut the reserve prices on their lots. Some agreed. Sellers of a 1938 Horch 853 Special Roadster let RM Auctions sell the car, one of just six built by the German manufacturer, at 1.1 million pounds against a low estimate of 2.5 million pounds. More Than Expected Still, some lots fetched more than expected at last night's event. Immediately after the ``Charlie's Angels'' Spyder failed, a silver 1997 McLaren F1 sports car sold for 2.5 million pounds, more than double its 1.1 million-pound low estimate. The car is one of only 64 road-going versions ever sold, this particular example was an ex-Park Lane showroom model with only 437 kilometers on the clock. In 1998, a prototype of the McLaren F1 reached 391 kilometers per hour (243 miles per hour) on a test track, a record for a production car that was not broken for more than a decade, said RM Auctions. ``Good cars with good provenances still do well,'' said Girardo. ``There's still some money out there.'' Most of the lots that sold fetched less than expected. A 1965 Ferrari 250 LM Berlinetta that won in its class in the 1965 Targa Florio race fetched 2.3 million pounds against an estimate of 2.5 million-to-2.8 million pounds. A peppermint-blue 1955 Ford Thunderbird, formerly owned by Hollywood actor John Travolta, who starred in the 1950s-inspired movie ``Grease,'' sold for 18,700 pounds against expectations of 20,000 pounds-to-30,000 pounds. Estimates don't include buyers' premium. ``Cars are still a bargain compared to art,'' said U.K.-based classic car collector Kevin Corbett, founder of Zerographic Systems, in an interview. ``It's just more difficult to borrow money at the moment, and people don't want to be seen by their bank managers to be spending serious amounts of money on luxuries.''
I was at the auction and have to say that most of the bidding seemed genuine (as far as one can ever tell). Interestingly they weren't trotting up the bids to near the reserve as is often the case, so you can probably take the high bids as genuine high bids. An example would be the 250GT Elena which was bid up to £120,000. I spoke to the seller later who told me his reserve was £190,000. I think someone else in this thread observed the distortion caused by exchange rate fluctuations. This means that from a UK perspective these prices seem pretty good under prevailing conditions. Taking the Daytona as an example: It sold for £132,000, which converted to $264,000 a couple of months ago. For an unrestored car this was a good price. Now of course it converts at around $205,000, dropping $60,000 but being right on the money in £. A surprise for me was the Aston DB4GT Zagato replica at £330,000. They can be made for well under this price. Strange that it raised nearly twice the price of the fake 250 SWB & GTO.
As stated earlier, there were many factors that effected the sales results and considering them as a whole, none favored RM and their task to place as many of the lots as possible. As always RM did an excellent job and should be commended for both running a clean auction and providing both seller and buyer the best opportunity under the circumstances for a successful sale. Remember, most lots were consigned many months ago when reserves and estimates were at a peak. At the same time, the dollar to the Euro and Pound was roughly: $1 = £1.9 and $1 = 1.65 Euros. Yesterday the exchange rates were something like: $1 = £1.55 and $1 = 1.28 Euros. These huge swings greatly effected the outcome and sales results. By the way... many of the unsold lots are well on their way to being sold to under bidders and alternate buyers... Regards, Bill
Someone has already pointed out the summary I wrote on last night's auction. I've noted all the Ferraris and some of the other 'highlight' cars (in my opinion anyway), with high bids and estimates. I don't have other people's benefits of knowing all the characters involved in the trade, but I did recognise a few faces. Comments are entirely my own opinion. I will highlight that the RM guys worked very hard to get bids out of the room, and that they must be a little disappointed with the final results. 37 no sales at the hammer, plus at least another 15 no reserve cars out of 100 cars is not a great percentage.
If I understand correctly F50 very low price $490K Great 4 cam for $1mil These indicate a price drop of 30% from a bubble peak, but are still healthy numbers compared to a few years ago. Seems like the F50 was a good buy, I wonder what this does to the price of an F40 and an Enzo, but then the 288 still bid to an interesting price. The Boxer comes out to 120K if you assume a boxer was 175k then the number decrease is the same 30%. A Lambo 350Gt at 170K would indicate more than a 40% drop. An ok daytona for $200K, even if one put in 100K to make it really nice this still indicates a 30% drop. The 288 no sale at 500K indicates more like a 20% drop, but then this is a car usualy priced below a F 50 and look at the F50 price. Prices are down, but it is clearly not an equal ammount, and a single auction price does not make a market. What is certain is that the trend line is currently downwards, and yet these prices appear higher than they were a few short years ago..IMHO we are seeing the balloon of the past year deflating. One auction does not make a market, but is this a trend or a floor? Now in the comming months we will start to see if there are real median cost drops. The F1 price is great, but then how new ones are there, only one apparently, unless the sultan is selling. It proves the point that very special super rare items still inhabit their own plane, all you need is two bidders for an item for which there are no alternatives. The F1 is I think the only modern car to go from production to coveted classic icon status. Given how special these cars are, their purity of vision, production quality regardless of costs, and performance they deserve the price. I remeber going into the showroom on Park lane. They had a motor on a stand, there the metal casting was perfect, it made a ferrari motor look like a stone age tool. The exhaust system was reputedly built by yamaha, and looked like a musical instrument. The chain that moved the throttle bodies looked built just for that task and it movement was like that of a fine gun. I would say that untill the F1, not since the time of bugatti or the Rolls silver ghost has a car been built with such obsessive attention to detail, and of course a modern ability to sweat details exceeds that of the past.
Look for the status quo to change as it relates to values of the 4 Supercars relative to each other, with the iconic first-of-a-series GTO faring best over the years.
It has been my favorite since I was a kid when they came out. Sadly I did not have the $$$ when they were 250K, perhaps if Jim is right and the price trend continues I will get a another crack at it.
IMHO. The great thing with the incoming recession and the scare it causes to speculators, some of these magnificent Fcars will be more "humanly" priced and therefore can be bought by enthusiasts instead...
not even close my friend. This is the very beginning. And as a member explains in another thread, this is not a bounce like the stock market. Most cars will never again see the height we just saw when the markets regains health. For any of you who study economics, this started just like the bust of most cycles. A big run up right before the crash. A sudden burst of about 30%. Next step: further decline. The folks thinking this might be the floor will be slack jawed as winter really sets in. These prices will be seen as just the start of the crash a year from now. Everyone in this market for the investment who held onto denial this long can no longer lie to themselves. They missed the top of the market and better dump fast if they hope to get out anywhere near break even this decade. Better deal are on the way. These cars are not investments and about every 20 years we get a big reminder. Must be like a California earthquake. I'm sad for the young guys in my area who've sunk so much money into exotics as investments. They bought cheap, not well sorted examples and will loose the majority of their net worth.
I think it proves that not all cars (even the same model) are 'equal', as Bill noted there are different 250LMs and there are now at this point different 288GTOs, F40s, and F50s with a spectrum between high and low numbers....... I'm almost to an 'even swap' my early 308GTB for a lightly used 456GT!
13 out of 21 offered Ferraris are sold on the floor. Quickly some of my thoughts; - Ellena, gonna be difficult, 2nd time already at RM - Lusso, great looking car, fantastic color, non matching engine is the issue, seller not willing to lower reserve - SWB Replica, prefer the donor - California, surprisingly for me not sold, Myers on the phone talking to bidder, Evans on the front row... - TdF, bought by a Chinese industrialist (from what the highest bidder told me) - GTE, fair deal, buy every one you can now! I shouldn't say this. - GTO replica, prefer the donor - LM, it's an LM! thought it would end higher, have to think it over - GTB/4's, the only one sold was my favorite, great old school smell and patina, fantastic, don't know the technical aspect on this one - 275 GTS, correct price for a correct car - 288 GTO, how much are they going then? - 330 2+2, correct, thought it didn't sell on the floor? - 330 GTC, lovely car, lot of potential for the future imo - 360 N-GT, difficult, something for Asian market or UAE? - Queen Mother, cheap - Daytona, should be correct - BBi, correct deal, low miles - Challenge, good deal - F50, it's cheap why? I only heard "this is the RM way!!!!" once at the end of bids on the McLaren. Anyway, it was another fantastic day filled with an atmosphere magnifique thanks to all these great cars and great people. Cordiali saluti, JR
Yes they include the auction commission of 10 %. E.G. The hammer price of the McLaren F1 was £ 2,300,000 + 10 % = £ 2,530,000. Here an impression from during the auction: Image Unavailable, Please Login
We really enjoyed the auction. Did not buy anything .... Thing is, in comparince with last year there were not many interesting/good cars. And those who were did got good money. The TdF was very good, the 275's reserves were too high and the silver one in bad shape. Reserves where unrealistic high, most bids pretty close. The LM crashed too many times. The guy who bought the F1 was very happy....My God did he paid way too much, and only because two guys fought for the same toy. RM did sold most of the cars that were bid under reserve. Prices include the auction fee. Ciao Oscar
