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Is 812 chassis that soft?

Discussion in 'FF/Lusso/F12/812S' started by RallyLT, Mar 12, 2021.

  1. RallyLT

    RallyLT Rookie

    Mar 12, 2021
    8
    Lithuania
    Hi all!

    I recently bought a second hand 812 Superfast. I have driven a car few years ago in France for few days so it's not the first 812 that I drive.

    My impressions about the car that it's REALLY soft and it rolls quite a lot in faster corners and I am wondering if it really should be like that? I don't remember the car rolling so much when I drove it in France. I own McLaren 720s, Porsche GT3 RS and Ferrari F355 and I can only compare it to these cars and I expect it to be with the softest chassis of them, but I just want to make sure everything is fine with my car.

    I am also a professional rally driver so I think I feel chassis and all the small details in cars very well. I would like to add that the car is currently on winter tires, it's around 0 degrees C in my country but I only drive it when it's dry. In addition, when I floor the accelerator in 3-5th gears, I can feel that the rear is moving from side to side quite a lot (not because of wheel slip). I am wondering maybe there is something lose in the rear chassis?

    Unfortunately I live in a country where there are no Ferrari dealerships and the closest dealership is around 600km from me + another country. I can't really get there due to Covid.

    What are other's experience with F12 or 812 chassis and how do they compare to 488 or other similar class cars?

    Thanks a lot guys!
     
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  3. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Rookie
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    Apr 27, 2017
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    Interesting. I’ve hot lapped a 812 around Road Atlanta and don’t remember unusual, or excessive, body roll. Indeed, I recall it to be very sure-footed and planted. Of course, I am NOT a rally car driver, and my skill level is well short of yours as I could never dream of testing body roll on freezing roads in an 800hp Ferrari. In order be comfortable doing that, I would need these....

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  4. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    3,637
    France
    Could that be an issue with the manettino since the suspension can have different settings? (e.g.if the suspension configuration is stuck in "wet" no matter the position of the manettino, I guess one could have this feeling)
     
  5. RallyLT

    RallyLT Rookie

    Mar 12, 2021
    8
    Lithuania
    When I switch manettino between wet/sport/race, modes change in the dashboard and the chassis get stiffer with race, but still quite soft. But the manettino switch itself is fine
     
  6. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ

    Jul 19, 2006
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    It definitely feels softer than my Speciale, yet still feels firm to me. However, I am no pro rally driver and your skills may demonstrate the more GT feel of this car. If it is driving well without codes, rattles or odd noises I doubt there is a suspension failure.
     
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  8. RallyLT

    RallyLT Rookie

    Mar 12, 2021
    8
    Lithuania
    Thank you for comparing it to Speciale. There are no sounds coming from the chassis or no errors in the dashboard
     
  9. JL350

    JL350 Karting

    Jan 20, 2013
    117
    Are the tyre pressures okay, too low and the winter tyres could give the impression of soft suspension. Otherwise is there any obvious suspension issues, uneven tyre wear, etc. that could indicate an issue?
     
  10. RallyLT

    RallyLT Rookie

    Mar 12, 2021
    8
    Lithuania
    Tyre pressures are 2.3-2.5 bar if I remember correctly (2.3 front, 2.5 rear). They warm up to ~10 degrees C front, ~25 degrees C rear. No obvious issues, the tyres are new Continental ContiWinterContact TS860. Ok by new I mean I already did 1000km in them
     
  11. klinkman

    klinkman Formula Junior
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    Jan 29, 2018
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    My 812 rear moves from side to side when I floor the accelerator too. It's definitely wheel spin.
     
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  13. RallyLT

    RallyLT Rookie

    Mar 12, 2021
    8
    Lithuania
    Ok thanks! But is it so the level that you even feel like you need to counter-steer slightly? Because with my other cars, if I floor it, it just go straight and I don't feel uncomfortable with it. With 812, if I floor it on 4th or 5th gear going at 120-150kmh, it's not as stable as my McLaren or Porsche. It might be due to engine being at the front on 812 and less weight on the rear wheels though...
     
  14. wrs

    wrs F1 Veteran
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    Jul 11, 2015
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    So I am getting better and better at pushing this car into it's limits and it will step out with RACE setting if you push it in the middle to exit of a curve. You can get the nose around nicely with a little extra gas over what you entered the curve with. I go into the curves with gas on and revs about 5000-6000 in 3rd gear and hit it hard on the way out shifting to 4th around 7k rpm. I am doing about 85 out of these curves and they are in a switchback configuration so you get the feel of both sides of the slide.

    When I first got the car a year ago, it felt like it would lose control at lower speeds than what I just described because I was going by feel compared to my 488 which felt ultra sure and I could not get the back end to step out using similar techniques in RACE. That car felt glued down but the 812 does not feel that way due to the different weight distribution. However, the rear steering I think is what helps make the difference in control even though the feel is not as controlled. The car responds well for me and the more I drive it the more confident I get with it.

    I am looking forward to Corso Pilota using the 812 in May at COTA where I can really push one of their cars on a closed track. The switchbacks there are much tighter though and I don't expect to get the same reaction so I am interested in seeing how the car handles on the edge if I can really get it there. Maybe you are already on the edge and I just haven't pushed the car hard enough but it's public roads.
     
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  15. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2013
    9,804
    I think the answer might very well be that for you, as a professional driver, the chassis could be considered soft. I think you are correct, the engine over the front, even though the weight distribution of the car according to Ferrari is 53% over the rear and it is still a transaxle layout, means the rear will be a bit more lively. I would call this a Ferrari thing. Also I bet you are feeling the e-diff and the traction system working to send power where it can get the most grip. You are probably very very sensitive to everything going on with the car. They have to allow a certain amount of wheel travel/ springs not too hard because this is still a relatively heavy street car- even though its got mega power and performance. The V12s have always been cars you have to get set on their suspension and then you corner. This has really been improved a lot with the F12 and 812, but its kind of how they drive.


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
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  16. klinkman

    klinkman Formula Junior
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    Depends on the manittino setting, the more aggressive setting the more user intervention is allowed or required. On the street I usually drive around in RACE (sort of a silly label). My experience is it will allow the rear end to step out a foot or two, but it takes over about the time I feel steering input is required. It's actually pretty well engineered to keep the car out of the ditch.

    Just turn the nannies off if you want to play with the wheel spin.
     
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  17. RallyLT

    RallyLT Rookie

    Mar 12, 2021
    8
    Lithuania
    I am actually surprised how quickly you guys are responding to the thread! Thank you very much for so much information and feedback on comparison with other Ferrari models, now I feel like everything is fine with the car, it's just a bit more GT than I expected. But overall, I love the car, it's just not as aggressive as mid-rear or full rear engine cars. Can't wait to put on summer tires on the car!

    Best Wishes from Lithuania!
     
  18. klinkman

    klinkman Formula Junior
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    controversial subject lines . . . ;)
     
  19. Newjoint

    Newjoint Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2016
    378
    The 812 is a road car first and foremost. It is softly sprung compared to many other cars which is okay by me as I live in NY with irs horrific roads. Porsche, AMG etc are much stiffer and jarring on these roads. McLaren is an exception. Their system has almost a miracle ride on bumpy surfaces(but at the expense of a bit of control imho)
    Check to see if the 812 bumpy road setting makes it even softer to ensure you are not permanently in that setting ( electronic glitches can occur in any car)
    Tires make a big difference too- the winter tires have a much softer compound on the tread- the side walls may or may not be softer too.
    Please report back when you switch tires- I’m confident the car will be firmer.
    In the twisties the suspension also should firm up and the car does “learn” your driving style and adjusts accordingly


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  20. SeattleStew

    SeattleStew Formula Junior
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    Apr 10, 2020
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    Firstly, yes I agree the 812 has more body roll than I would like. Also agree that it likes to be tail happy, but that's more of a symptom of a lot power and front-mid engine RWD in my opinion. I am also running Continental tires, but the DWS06 compound. I plan on switching to the Michelin MPS4S soon, and I'll be curious how much the level of grip changes.

    I noticed it had more body roll than I would like when I was driving in bumpy road mode in race setting. Turning it off was a noticeable improvement. However it still is a bit more than I'd like. I really have taken a notice to it after doing multi days of advanced rally driving instruction. Obviously I'm nowhere near a pro level, and you will be vastly more sensitive to a car than I am. Just something I have become a bit more sensitive to.

    After driving some mid-engine super cars I have noticed they felt a little more planted. I enjoy the driving of the 812 a lot more though.
     
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  21. day355

    day355 Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2006
    944
    understand what you mean, I had the same feeling on my F 12 and I am far from your drive.
    So I installed the TDF springs because the anti-roll bars and their diameter were identical.
    The new springs are 35% more rigid, and with the ride height and alignment of the TDF, the set up is 1000 times better than before.
     
  22. GameMaker

    GameMaker Formula Junior
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    Apr 17, 2014
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    Winter tires will make a huge difference IMHO. I'm not sure I would call the car soft but it is a GT car and definitely isn't as planted as a 488.
     
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  23. john Owen

    john Owen Karting

    Dec 27, 2018
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    If someone is new to Ferraris no matter how talented they are as drivers the ultra fast steering rack takes a long time to get accustomed to. This is made even more so due to the RAS. Its a 1.7T car with 800PS driven by a front engine with no 4WD. Its a bit like riding a bucking bronco for the first time, very exciting if you respect the prancing horse:D.
    The 812SF is my favourite modern Ferrari by a long way. A true masterpiece but for proper drivers only. Perfect car for a pro rally driver but a potential disaster for less talented drivers:oops:.
     
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  24. RallyLT

    RallyLT Rookie

    Mar 12, 2021
    8
    Lithuania
    UPDATE:
    So yesterday I changed to summer tires (Pirelli P Zero). Today it was 17 degrees C (~63 in Fahrenheit) so I gave it a spin and it really felt MUCH better. Yes, the chassis feels softer than McLaren 720s or GT3 RS, but it's not bad. A lot of discomfort really came from those soft winter tires.

    On the other hand, getting up to 300kmh (~190mph) doesn't feel as comfortable as previously mentioned cars but I assume it's because of lack of rear spoiler. 720s or GT3 RS feels much more stable at high speed, 812 is wobbling around a bit. It's a GT car after all :) Overall it's a really great car, I love the V12, its sound, instant response, ride quality at lower speeds. I would 100% chose 812 over 720s or GT3 RS for a longer trip!
     
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  25. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie

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    #22 Il Co-Pilota, Mar 31, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
    Interesting.

    The 812 SF is actually a pretty firm car. Not Pista firm, but pretty firm none the less.

    The F12 is a very rolley-polley car, much much more so than the 812.

    I would start by checking all the alignment specs and ride height. More often than not, Ferraris are delivered with those specs all over the place.

    It is obviously not as stiff as a GT3RS, thank god for that, but it is a pretty firm car. It's a sports car, not a GT, and it sits within Ferraris line of sports cars.

    Take it to an alignment shop and make sure ride height, camber, and toe is on point. If the ride height is set too high, that will affect the sway bars during cornering.
    You can also lower it about 15 mm all around over stock, and that will also help the roll.

    Regarding the speed. Again, get your alignment checked. It should feel solid at that speed - I mean take your hands off the wheel solid. I can PM you some alignment numbers just to show you how off Ferrari sometimes deliver these cars. It's ridiculous. Also, the PZero is definitely better than winter tyres, but they are well known for tramlining. Once you have worn them out, get the Michelin PS4S as it feels a lot better still. If you want a more track focused tyre, get the TdF spec PZero Corsa 4. At any rate, the car should not feel unsettled at 300. It is 350+ capable and 300 should be a breeze.

    With the F12, my take on it was this. If a GT3RS is an agile figure skater, then the F12 is like dancing a waltz. Still very precise and capable, but you have to roll with it. The 812 has a bit of this, but nowhere near the same amount. It should feel firm, not soft. The 812 is more Pista than it is 488, that's for sure.

    Good luck.
     
  26. RallyLT

    RallyLT Rookie

    Mar 12, 2021
    8
    Lithuania
    Much appreciate such detailed answer. I will definitely check the alignment!
     
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  27. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    Mar 3, 2012
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    I agree with this. The 812 is not really a GT car, it is also not soft enough to be a good GT - a 488 is better as a GT surprisingly (though a 488 is a proper sports car/supercar of course). One of the weaknesses of the car (not really that significant but still) is that the ride quality is busy. Not crashy or in any way harsh but just busy. Even with the bumpy road mode on. In fact, bumpy road mode seems to lose more body control compared to gaining absorbance - the trade-off is not so good in the 812 as in some of the other cars. It is still worth using but it doesn’t cost much in lost compliance to switch it off when you’re pressing on.

    The 812 seems to do the same thing that the F12 did before it - it leans fairly early into a corner but then settles and digs in. From the driver’s seat this feels less than when looking from outside (I followed an 812 for a few laps around the track last year and it seemed to lean quite a bit). To me, the 812 is as good on track and around fast, tight roads as the F12 was challenging. The F12 felt like a GT car with a huge engine, screaming at you from out front. A beast! The 812 is much better to drive quickly in my view. The rws is brilliantly judged, it never feels too soft but never quite disguises its weight either. The most important thing for me is that it does what you think it should do when you push it, it feels natural considering it is a front-engined, 800hp, rwd sports car. The weight transfer is rewarding, off throttle helps the front to dig in progressively as you initiate the turn and despite having 800hp and easily being able to overwhelm the rear tyres’ grip, it can put the power down well and in a way that lets you decide how much extra to give it so that the rear wheels nudge you around the turn that little bit better. It feels sharp, intimate, rewarding and very powerful. I have never driven a front-engined car that comes close to either the Superfast or GTS in terms of driver reward. The mid-engined cars do feel more planted and that will never change; physics determine that. But the 812 is an experience all of itself. I suspect most people would find the confidence to drive a 488/F8 much quicker around a track but to master the front-engined cars and get reward from that engine is well worth the entry ticket and the effort required.

    I could see how tyres make a big difference to the 812, in particular winter tyres. No idea if the OP’s car is set up far away from where it supposed to be but with two 812s in our garage, they both have that similar sporty and sharp feeling. They lean, they are a bit lardy compared to a GT3RS, a 720 or a Pista, but their sound pierces the air in the best way and the lusty power, put down through a really well-judged chassis never makes me feel like it is a GT car - far too adrenaline-filled for that! My take anyway.
     
  28. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
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    May 2, 2005
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    This is how I initially ran the tyres ( as above) and the car was very unstable and the back very twitchy when do "aggressive" mountain type driving. I got Ferrari to set the tyres 2.3 front 2.1 rear when cold and it was an entirely different car. Ran it in Race mode with tyres temp around 40-50 C with ambient around 22 C and it was an absolute pleasure. VERY planted and excellent turn-in.

    High speed (above 240kmh) was a bit unsettling as the car was "floating"- so need to understand why - BTW roads were at best B and most C quality so that could unsettle the car
     
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