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Increasing number of used 812 cars for sale

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by Jljr, Feb 11, 2020.

  1. Jljr

    Jljr Rookie

    Feb 25, 2018
    5
    Miami Beach
    I have monitored for months the growing number of used Superfast models listed for sale. As of today, Autotrader shows 88 listings; 45 2018, 41 2019, and 3 2020 (6-7 months into the model year.). Obviously many of these listings represent those who have ordered the 812 GTS and want to sell before their convertible arrives. When I see that the first 2 model year listings are about the same (45 and 41) while the 2020 model year shows only 3 listed I am curious as to the reason. Did the demand after the first 2 years evaporate due to a lack of additional customers wanting the 812? If sales levels did not drop off going into 2020, why are there only 3 listed on the resale market? If sales have truly dropped off do dealers have inventory or has production shifted entirely to the GTS? An additional observation is that for the entire 5 year production run of the F12, there are only 85 total vehicle listed for resale. Any thoughts on this as well?
     
  2. Gianfranco341

    Gianfranco341 Karting

    Sep 12, 2017
    58
    Full Name:
    Gianfranco Zanoni
    I agree the number of 812 for sale is high . Reasons should be :
    1) customers would like to have a GTS then they try to sell SF before to try to get more out of it .
    2) customers bought an SF in order to have an allocation for special versions ( Pista , Monza , 812 VS ) . When they had it then they sale SF .
    3) last but not least IMHO when there were just 3 models on normal production ( except special and limited series) it was clear 812 or F12 before were the top . With SF90 even if it is a V8 and not a V12 it is not clear anymore which one is the top . There are customers who like to keep the top series .
    Going back why there are so few MY 2020 for sale I think just because we are just on February 2020 . We should check it next year
     
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  3. wrs

    wrs F1 Rookie
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    Jul 11, 2015
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    I think you need the SF in your garage when you order the GTS and I am not sure there have been any allocations given for the GTS here in the US yet for 2020. I think they are coming the second half the year. So reason 1 isn't it. That reason ought to cause the inventory to decline if someone wants a GTS they need to currently own a SF.

    I think number 3 is some of them, I know at least one that is on sale for that reason. Mostly I think it's people who don't hold a Ferrari long because they move on to the next car. This seems to be a phenomena with the exotic market. I am certainly guilty of not owning cars for very long. I will be selling my 2018 488 when I get my 812 in late March. So there goes a two year old 488 on the market in place of a new 812. I sold my 2017 Cali T HS only about a year after I bought it new to get my 488 Spider.

    I would say I am going to own the 812 for a while but when I get the GTS allocation, it will probably be traded for the GTS when it arrives but that is at least a year off and probably longer.

    Anyway, if you are looking to buy the 812 then it's a good market for you to get a good deal on a used one. There are some good specs out there.
     
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  4. 09Scuderia

    09Scuderia Formula 3

    Nov 20, 2011
    2,097
    Austin, Texas
    Full Name:
    Tim&Julie
    GTS allocations are being assigned.....
     
  5. Gianfranco341

    Gianfranco341 Karting

    Sep 12, 2017
    58
    Full Name:
    Gianfranco Zanoni
    I don’t know what is happening there but where I live ( Italy) the situation is like the one I explained . That means someone is buying a 812SF and when he has it or even when he is still on waiting list a new special version like pista , like GTS is allocated . You are not obliged to keep the previous model but is only an excuse to sell more obliging to get one before another . I sold my F12 last November immediately after I had an allocation for a 812SF , June 2020 delivery . At the moment in Italy you can find 812 SF for sale owned by customer who has already ordered another Ferrari and it is allocated . You can find also for sake some 812SF with no mileage just because some car seller were thinking to make some speculation with immediate delivery for something you normally have to wait for . Even my boss has a really important Ferrari collection since many many years and he is having difficulties to have an allocation for 812 VS because last Ferrari he bought was a GTC lusso but 2 years ago . In order to have an allocation for a 812 VS he is obliged to buy another Ferrari within 12 months before . He will buy it and he will resell it immediately after . This is like it works over here .
     
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  6. Gianfranco341

    Gianfranco341 Karting

    Sep 12, 2017
    58
    Full Name:
    Gianfranco Zanoni
    Yes . One dealer in Italy has allocated 12 GTS in 2020 and they are already all sold out . As it is already sold out those already allocated to the dealer for half 2021 delivery . If you order one now you have a delivery within 15-18 months . That means all other with previous delivery are already allocated at least to dealers
     
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  7. wrs

    wrs F1 Rookie
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    Jul 11, 2015
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    According to our dealer he has only 2 to give for this year. However, I know who is selling the RC 812 and he is selling it to make room for the SF90 he ordered so I think reason #3 suits his situtaion.
     
  8. Jljr

    Jljr Rookie

    Feb 25, 2018
    5
    Miami Beach
    Yes, these are all valid explanations as to why the “top of the line V12” is bought and listed for sale shortly thereafter. As the F12 was never offered as a convertible it makes sense that some of those V12 owners were not motivated to sell for that reason. As some sold to acquire the new V12 there was initial demand and orders for the 812 when announced. It follows that there is pent up demand for the GTS possibly explaining why there are so many low mileage nicely spec’d models for sale as wrs pointed out. Yes, it will be interesting to watch the resale market by MY; if the V12 continues to be available in coupe and convertible versions, how quickly will those offered for resale be absorbed? Will the resale list continue to grow for 2020 models and years thereafter?
     
  9. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 11, 2013
    9,199
    The marketplace was vastly different when the F12 was in production.

    But the big trend that no one here has mentioned is the shift away from front engined cars to mid engined cars in the exotic car market.

    The other reasons are also valid.

    A Ferrari V12 is a very special thing, front engine or not, but when you look at how many F12b and now 812, there are a very good number of excellent cars available.

    There is definitely pent up demand for a convertible V12.
     
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  10. Bamsefar

    Bamsefar Formula Junior

    Nov 26, 2012
    339
    Sweden
    I would like to point out that the F12, FF and 812SF/GTS all are technically mid engine V12 cars. The engine is behind the front axle and between the wheel axles, however the engine is in front of the driver yes - but it still is technically a mid engine car. But I guess in market language it seems to be front engine...
     
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  11. BaronM69

    BaronM69 Formula Junior
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    Aug 29, 2005
    892
    Washington DC / FR
    GTSs are allocated and ordered in the US already.
     
  12. Hex

    Hex Karting

    May 1, 2009
    83
    This is a major element in the 812’s design. The front/mid engine layout is rather anomalous in the car world and really contributes to the 812’s capabilities. I enjoy my 812 immensely.
     
  13. MDEL

    MDEL Formula 3
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    Feb 24, 2016
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    Mario
    MOBILE.de is the most important second hand car trading platform in continental Europe (RHD UK cars normally aren't traded there). The number of 812's for sale has been steady during the last months at around 95 cars and curiously, it's very similar to the number of standard F12's B adverted for sale, around 100 cars.
    The 812 started being delivered in Europe in 2017 and 1389 new cars were already sold until the end of 2019. The F12 B started being delivered in 2012 and 2112 cars were sold in Europe until the end of 2019. Despite the credible explanation given by Gianfranco 341 for the reasons why there is a large number o 812's for sale in Italy, the reality is that the number of F12's B existing in Europe is almost the double of the 812's. So why the number of announced cars for sale is so similar in Europe ? Another possible explanation is the price difference between the 812 and the F12 B making the latter sell better. Now it's possible to buy a low mileage fully equipped F12 B for a bargain price between 200 K and 220 K Euros while the bottom price for a basic 812 is 290 K Euros and the better equipped ones are adverted AT around 360 K Euros.
     
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  14. wrs

    wrs F1 Rookie
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    Jul 11, 2015
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    All or some? I was told that my dealer only had 2 for the year. That's not going to put a lot of 812s on the market.
     
  15. wrs

    wrs F1 Rookie
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    They call it front mid or mid front I think, 53% of the weight is in the back half, same for Cali T and Portofino I believe.
     
  16. BaronM69

    BaronM69 Formula Junior
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    Aug 29, 2005
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    Washington DC / FR
    orders are in, i have a firm ranking in writing and dealers have their total allocation.

    Now are orders pushed in in modis yet if you exceed the prod number this year, idk
     
  17. wrs

    wrs F1 Rookie
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    Is your 812 for sale?
     
  18. BaronM69

    BaronM69 Formula Junior
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    Aug 29, 2005
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    Washington DC / FR
    nope. Why?
     
  19. wrs

    wrs F1 Rookie
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    Oh because that was given as one reason there were so many 812s for sale on the market.
     
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  20. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Owner Miami 2018

    Dec 1, 2000
    50,027
    Southlake, TX
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    Rob Lay
    this is how it works with all new Ferraris from the dealer now, the root causes are...
    1. Ferrari not allowed to sell new Ferraris above MSRP.
    2. Resold new Ferraris selling above MSRP.
    3. Dealers allowed to sell resold new Ferraris above MSRP (after 6 months).
    4. The premium spots with dealers are those customers that get all new models and trade them in soon after that 6 month rule.
    Currently is the "perfect storm" most new Ferrari models go through (sans Lusso, California, Portofino) where there is a flood on the market place. It is a delicate balance as from the time new model announced through initial production there is a significantly higher demand than numbers made. The counter to that balance is every day that goes by that new model has a little less demand as more have been made, more are available on the market, everyone realizes the value is on the downhill, and it is no longer the greatest and newest among Ferrari and all makes.
     
  21. wrs

    wrs F1 Rookie
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    Jul 11, 2015
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    Right, I call that the gotta have it now demand. Some people will pay the premium to have the car in the first model year and some customers get those cars and sell them to those people. That demand is usually gone in two years. The other factor that is probably not happening with the 812 but did happen with 488 is that there are dealer spec cars that get entered into MODIS and that are built and sold. I actually have one of those in my profile. I configured it but never placed the order, I bought the six month old one from Tampa in May 2018 instead of waiting until Nov 2018. I paid a $10k premium to get my spider early. However, my configuration was still built and sold but not to me.
     
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  22. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    Its called flipping. Done by those that are not willing to trade the cash for the car. Its a fly by night pseudo-ownership thing so they can drive it without seemingly paying. Ferrari loves this as it feeds the new and used markets. This will get worse because production is ever increasing along with the MSRP. Issue will be when the immediate resale price is too low for the flipper to feel the MSRP is worth the bother.
     
  23. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Owner Miami 2018

    Dec 1, 2000
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    Rob Lay
    the "game" really isn't profitable anymore for these reasons...
    1. the dealer will only buy the car back at MSRP max (unless you consign it).
    2. the only Ferraris that really sell above MSRP anymore are the special editions.
    3. once you sell that first Ferrari outside the dealer for a flip profit, you are out of the game. so you can only do it once now.
    I'm not saying the game still isn't worth playing, but I think only for a handful at each dealership that are getting the special editions and first few productions of each model. Even then you are probably buying some Lussos at a loss.

    The real secret now which seems to be slow getting out is there are the next 40-50 customers that think they're in the game and maybe being close to the "handful", but really aren't.
     
  24. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    41,343
    Texas!
    You guys are nuts. Even worse, you are enabling Ferrari to avoid having any kind of quality control. Instead of building the very best, you’re incentivizing Ferrari to build as many models as they can, as fast as they can.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  25. Hex

    Hex Karting

    May 1, 2009
    83
    I’d say we’re there.
     
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