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GTO Spyder for sale

Discussion in 'Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies' started by Tspringer, Feb 24, 2006.

  1. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

    Jun 24, 2004
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    Marnix
    And wouldn´t they want to have the real thing of money were no object?
     
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  3. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 3, 2002
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    Andreas
    Maybe. Original artwork has similar drawbacks as original cars: There is a big risk in loosing them (e.g. fire, flood, theft). Just like some people would never take their unique Ferrari onto a public street.

    Also - as with the example of the 250 GTO -: Some unique art pieces are simply not for sale. Which is why even museums (does it get any more purist than that?) sometimes settle for displaying a replica.
     
  4. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2004
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    I have some more smoke to blow…

    Another thing is average replica prices seem to be in the quarter million dollar range. If you spent a fraction of that on the real GTE you'd have the Jewel of the Nile.

    A well restored GTE in the right colors scheme is the cat's whiskers!

    Give me a platinum restored 250 GTE in metallic dark gray, cinnamon hide and light tan carpets, with all the tools and books, and forgetaboutit!

    john
     
  5. mikegt

    mikegt Karting

    Apr 4, 2004
    72
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    Mike Gilfillan
    Terry is absolutely right. I own a CA Spyder recreation on a 365 GT2+2 chassis and it is an absolute blast to drive and to own. I also own and am restoring a Daytona "cut" spyder. The CA Spyder body was done to near perfection by Allegretti in Italy. Do I really care if it's "original" or "legitimate"? Hell no! Am I trying to pass it off as original or wanting to impress any Ferrari snobs -- HELL NO!

    Actually, the guys who really know and are involved with vintage Ferraris (including a Cavallino judge of originality and a former owner of FAF with a real CA Spyder) are the first to give me a thumbs-up for being willing to drive and enjoy such a beautiful vintage Ferrari without trying to "save one for history or financial sake".

    My CA Spyder recreation is actually more rare than the originals since less than a dozen correct recreation/rebodies have been built and since the one I own is built with a bigger engine and better suspension than the originals and has an all aluminum body -- a Ferrari "hot rod" if there ever was one.

    With the exception of Ferraris with racing histories (Ferrari's true nature), why should a Ferrari owner be concerned about being a "custodian of history" or trying to preserve a marquee of cars produced by a company more concerned with racing than building quality street cars?? The most absurd such example I've read recently is the guy who bought Steve McQueen's 275 and then repainted it brown for "history's sake" instead of just painting it whatever color he wanted (red, I think the article said).

    Sure, there are lots of great things about 250's or 365's or whatever, but get real, they were not one-off masterpiece paintings -- they were produced in multiple copies and iterations in the first place!

    Stop whining and go driving!

    Sincerely,

    Mike G.
    Atlanta, GA
     
  6. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193

    Kudos to you, sir!

    --Dan
     
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  8. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
    15,984
    Automobile collecting is changing its fundamental nature from that of a hobby to that of an antiquarian activity, focused on distinctions relating to make, model, condition, originality, provenance, etc. and is rapidly approaching the arena of connoisseurship. The single biggest variable causing valuation differences among identical cars is object quality. Quality, in turn, may be broken into two elements: originality and condition. Of these two elements, much use has been made of condition criteria while relatively less has been made of objective criteria for originality. That such is so is ironic, as IT IS HISTORICAL CONTEXT WHICH IS THE ONLY BASIS FOR THE SIGNIFICANCE AND VALUE OF A COLLECTIBLE CAR. Were this not true, modern reproductions would command the same value as authentic objects. Indeed, collectible objects, as well as fine art, are relics from their period of origination that have traveled through time to the present, importing with them the zeitgeist, the regional flavor and the technical and production ethos of their creators. Therefore, it is axiomatic that aging, wear and tear and other natural deterioration is the visible evidence of that journey through time and becomes the defining property of authenticity. Indeed, every dent and blemish would tell a story were we able to read it.

    Through the process of restoration, cosmetic aging can be reversed, returning the car to the simulacrum of originally built newness. Paradoxically, such restored condition comes at the expense of sacrificing whatever visible evidence of authenticity was still impounded in the object. While there are many instances where restoration is indicated, no automobile, however meticulously restored, resides on the same plane as the miraculously preserved, wholly authentic automobile. We have only to examine the consistent premium such unmolested cars achieve at auction.

    If properly performed, restoration resets the object’s clock, allowing it to start over without a past, an immigrant to the modern world. However, several problems arise. The “zero time” look makes the object visually indistinguishable from the cunningly fabricated replica. The introduction of false patination offers no solution, as not only may it be applied to the above mentioned replica, but it also creates a fabricated and fictitious past for the historical automobile; and objects so treated are inherently dishonest. In the future, we can expect more insidious authenticity issues to deal with, as modern reproductions of old cars naturally age and patinate. Like sleeper agents-in-place, these cars may be passed off as good citizen restored authentic cars, or even miraculously preserved unmolested originals.

    Marcel Massini
     
  9. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Interesting thoughts. I do think it's possible to "restore" without obliterating history. Take J6 for example. While we're constantly servicing her and every ten years we take her apart we try to do it in a way that someone would service/renew a race car. The dents and scratches remain but rust/corrorsion is removed and bolts and bearings are replaced.

    0854 is another example. Over the years she was fitted with the spyder body of 0858 buy luckily her mechanicals were renewed not overly restored a la J6. We are restoring her original coupe body and will attempt to retain as much as her original paint but her body will remain a bit more rumpled than other cars who have been "set back to zero" or minus zero.

    0846 is of course a different story and in that case all we've tried to do is to work with what we have and DISCLOSE EVERYTHING. That said Sal and John have done some job and she wears her proper P3/P4 Spyder body very well.

    No matter what one does I do beleive it's very important to make yourself happy. In the end the end will come and that will be all that matters...
     
  10. bill365

    bill365 F1 Rookie

    Nov 3, 2003
    3,319
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    Bill
    Hillary is allowed to bring his spyder for display, but it is never, AFIK, judged at the gatherings. I am sure he doen't care about that, Hil enjoys driving it, as any of us, I'm sure would.
     
  11. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    47,294
    Texas!
    Marcel, great post. Let me first thank you for venturing among the great unwashed. I realize that most of your peer group believe that F-Chat is populated by loony 16-year olds who don't know their behind from a hole in the ground. I also realize that almost all of your peer group doesn't give a rat's behind what any of us here on F-Chat think about the rules for concours judging. Thus, again, I appreciate you being brave enough to venture out to the ragged edge of polite society.

    I want to also thank you and all the other spotters who over the years have been the keepers of the gate. While I have on occasion joked that you guys need to get a life, without all the Teleio types, we would have at least 1,000 250 GTOs roaming the world.

    I also understand that the early days of concours judging were little more that popularity contests for the OWNERS, not the cars. Thus, adopting an "Ed Gilbertson" checklist approach to originality has improved judging and made it fairer.

    I am concerned, however, that the objective/originality approach is getting out of hand. First, given the manufacturing technology at the time (or the lack of it), who can honestly say an car is 100% original? Moreover, after a point, who cares about having a car exactly as it left the factory? Say a car was built with drum brakes. The current owner, however, has replaced them with period correct disk brakes. Why should this car get marked down?

    At the risk of incurring the wrath of that evil elf king of the toasted ponies (;)), who really cares about tool kits? They were pieces of crap to begin with!

    It gets worst when you talk about race cars, but I'm not going to go any further with this one. Let's let sleeping P3/P4s lie for now, eh?

    But, I think that you said it best when the overriding goal has to be preventing fakes. Not only does this protect the breed, but it helps stop the hacking up of undesirable cars into GTOs. However, applied too strictly, we run the risk of forgetting why we do this in the first place; namely to look at beautiful cars.

    As always your thoughts are appreciated.

    Dale
     
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  13. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    #110 Marcel Massini, Mar 6, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  14. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

    Jun 24, 2004
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    Marnix
    So this one doesn´t meet your approval at all...
     
  15. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    It's a rebody anyway.
    Marcel Massini
     
  16. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2004
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    This car does not seem to precisely follow the Touring contours. Had it been an original Touring Barchetta I would have suspected it was wrecked and rebuilt untrue to the original contours.

    I guess this is my issue with the replicas. They almost never look quite exact. Even the best ones betray their origin from one angle or another.

    john
     
  17. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    As mentioned in post #110 it is a body built by Carrozzeria Fantuzzi in 1968, resembling a 1950 Touring Barchetta. One could call it a replica of a Touring Barchetta. It was commissioned by French collector Pierre Bardinon who owned 0264 M at the time. I agree that it doesn't really look like a genuine Touring Barchetta.
    Wait for the August 2006 issue of "Cavallino" magazine to see a real authentic and super genuine and non-restored 166 MM Barchetta Touring. With perfect contours and lines.
    Marcel Massini
     
  18. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    Marcel, with no malice or any ill-will, I'm simply curious: what, in your personal opinion, rank amongst the top ferraris to own? As in individual cars, given the budget (or lack thereof), what would top your own personal list?

    --Dan
     
  19. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    0870, 5975, 0848, 0460 AM, 0286 AM.
    Marcel Massini
     
  20. djaffrey

    djaffrey Formula Junior

    Apr 11, 2004
    486
    London, England
    Full Name:
    DJ
    312P
    250 LM
    330 P3
    375 MM Spyder
    340 MM Vignale Spyder

    I think...

    Happy to stand very corrected.
     
  21. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 3, 2002
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    Andreas
    Why not 002C? Because Jim restored it and hence took away some originality?

    Just curious. AFAIK this is the oldest Ferrari in existence so I would have expected it to make that list.
     
  22. T308

    T308 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    May 12, 2004
    1,004
    Southern Cal
    Which would cost you (according to Keith Bluemel)...

    $3.5-$4.5m
    $2.4-$3.4m
    $4.5-$5.0m
    $3.7-$4.5m
    $2.5-$3.0m

    So the "Massini Dream Garage" would cost you $16.4m-$20.4m (assuming the owners would consider parting with the cars at all!).

    T308
     
  23. xs10shl

    xs10shl Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2003
    2,017
    San Francisco
    I wouldn't say "snobby" is the right word, but I will agree that the rules for showing a Ferrari are a bit stricter here in the bay area. We're spoiled with a fair share of Ferraris and wealthy owners, which may lead to a tightening of the show rules (I'm guessing). It's tough to compete with a customized Ferrari street rod when John Mozart rolls out his latest 10 million dollar whatever (don't get me wrong - I'm just happy he shows his cars at all!). But there are a fair number of shows, and enthusiasts, in the area which have no such restrictions or hang-ups.

    Like I said, in the end, I don't mind the tightening of the rules, becuase I'll support whatever it takes to get our wealthy collectors out there showing their rare cars.
     
  24. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I agree to that. Actually I think it is good and important to have a variety of shows from hardcore concours to "let your hair down" car show. And I think that reflects reality of shows offered and ownership. So to think that you don't have a group you could hang with because you have a such and such car, is simply not true.
     
  25. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    412P. There are no P3's existant. I'll leave the others to others...
     
  26. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    The prices indicated are about two years behind the real situation.
    0870 would cost at least US$ 8 M. The best 250 LM in the world for sure US$ 5.5 M to 6 M. The best 375 MM Spider at least US$ 6++ M. And on and on. And I don't think that Bruce McCaw would sell 0286 AM for US$ 2.5 M to US$ 3 M.............US$ 6 M would most probably be a bit more realistic.
    Marcel Massini
     
  27. nct

    nct Karting

    Nov 6, 2003
    64
    Guangzhou, China
    Full Name:
    Neil
    It's just a ******** car, its not the last of its type. If someone where to do this to the last original GTE in existance then I would be jumping up and down to. My opinion is that someone has taken a car, personalized it to their own requirements, nothing wrong with that. If someone else feels so strongly about this car then they should put their money where their mouth is, buy it and turn it back to standard. But then we would have other people jumping up and down saying how could you ruin such a unique piece of work.

    Cheer, Neil
     
  28. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    My list (post #116) includes four extremely original, authentic and genuine Ferraris. Never restored. Only the last one I listed (0286 AM) has been restored. The cars on my own private list have nothing to do with "oldest Ferrari in existence" or similar. Absolutely nothing against Jim's 002 C. I know that car very well and personally sold it to somebody in Switzerland (before Jim bought it). But you should not forget that 002 C has been rebodied more than once. And I do not consider it pretty.

    0870 is the only genuine and authentic 312 P Berlinetta left and - in my opinion - one of the most attractive cars on the planet. It has not been restored and belongs to Pierre Bardinon in France since 36 years. Have you ever looked at those black slits in the rear window? This whole car is pure *** on wheels.

    5975 is the most original 250 LM in existence. It is almost brand new and stored in the Schlumpf Museum in France since 40 years. Mileage is about 2'000 kms (yes, that's two thousand). There is still the original air in the tires........

    0848 is a 412 P originally raced by Swiss Scuderia Filipinetti, the roof is painted white for heat protection in the Targa Florio. The car has never been heavily damaged and is extremely genuine. It was for years in the Bardinon collection and now sits in a Swiss collection since June 1991. I very much like the design. The late 1960s and early 1970s were the best years in motor racing.

    0460 AM is the yellow 375 MM Spider Pinin Farina of 1954. Sold new to Mrs Willamenta Keck Day (Superior Oil Company), and until today in the same family ownership (!). Spectacular color combination yellow with green leather, the November 1955 Road & Track cover car. See also Cavallino magazine issue #69 of June 1992. No race history but fabulously original.

    0286 AM: Yes, restored BUT: Super spectacular race car with great names attached to it: Phil Hill, Richie Ginther, Lou Brero etc. Look at all the little details such as the stabilizing fin, the headrest or the air intakes, not to forget the three oval portholes, the outboard headlights and the triangular cut away in the rear fenders. Placed 2nd in the Carrera Panamericana Mexico 1954. Winner of the Pebble Beach Cup 1997. Oh yeah, and Alberto Ascari raced it too. What else can you ask for?

    Again, the above is just my private and personal opinion. Others may have different favourites and that's ok.
    Marcel Massini
     

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