Ferrari Investment

365 GT4/BB

 

I agree you should be content getting 7%+ annual appreciation over 11 years on something you get real pleasure from driving. Especially, as you pointed out, how other cars depreciate. Some horrifically so, e.g. a new Range Rover.

My point was that as an "investment", as the OP was asking, the purchase of a Ferrari, using your numbers as guidance to the OP, is an underwhelming investment relative to the benchmark S&P 500, something everyone can relate to.

"Hey guys.. I am planning to buy a ferrari as an investment. Primarily between 458 Speciale or 575M Manual."

I am sure we could both find examples of cars that have outperformed and years where the stock market has tanked but Ferrari values have remained strong. I just hope we can agree there is a difference between a pure investment, where it should be measured again other investments like stocks and property, vs. an "investment with benefits", e.g. a car you can use or fine art that you can hang on your wall and enjoy with your friends. I am willing to concede that a discount on the return is part of the intangible pleasure we receive as custodians of these things.

I don't really consider a Ferrari as an investment, because as Carl pointed out, there is no yield and it is quite difficult to predict what is going to happen with the price. There are no quarterly reports on earnings like with stocks, no Morningstar analysis. It is like artwork. But unlike artwork, I do pay attention to the not so unsubstantial holding costs. I recently bought a 308 GTS Qv here in Australia and have settled on the belief that it costs me US$15k a year to own. That figure might sound high to people in the US, but RHD Qvs are 7% of the production and subsequently about double what they cost in the US. So the opportunity cost is higher. I factored all that in to the cost of ownership. In the end, I accepted that $15k a year for my indulgence was acceptable. I don't factor in appreciation. It could go up. It could go down. If someone has that kind of information, I'd be happy for them to give me a call. In the end, I did not buy it as an investment, as the OP is considering. I bought it because I couldn't resist. It gives me joy. I hope yours does as well.

The OP came to FC for an objective opinion about whether he should buy a Ferrari as an investment. I suspect like most of us, he just wants to have one and is looking for a way to justify it. I'm not sure if FC is the best forum for objectivity in this regard. A bit like proposing an AA convention in Vegas.

Cheers

 

Well of course. A classic model, of which only 387 were produced, vs. the OP's modern day choice of a 458 Speciale (3000 made) or 575M (2,056 made).

After almost half a century, it will become increasingly harder to find a good Boxer. They will become more expensive to keep in good shape and due to the perennial appeal of this model, more expensive. So yes, maybe a safer bet than the 458 or 575. But a LOT more expensive to buy. I guess it depends on the OP's modus operandi. Does he want to drive it?

 

The second you typed “S&P500” you lost the plot..... it’s entirely the wrong way to judge this type of investment..... OK, let’s get away from using my Diablo as an example, because like most investments it takes money to make money, so anything I could afford looks like pauper’s money.

Say 11 years ago, I bought a nice $400k F40. I drive it 500 miles a year and service it properly. It is now worth what, $1.5M? I don’t think you would question that at all.

Collectible cars are like collectible art, if you choose wisely, history says you will be happy with the return, both as something beautiful to look at (drive in the case of cars) and financially versus a bunch of stock certificates.

So the answer to the long gone OP is yes, some choices are better than others and the real skill is in the selection.

 

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/investment

People seem to be getting a bit touchy about their vehicles as investments.

The retrospectoscope is a wonderful device, and it's really easy to think you're an investment genius when all you've done with your car is ridden a rising market.

However the same could be said for investing in equities, art or property over the same period.

In Australia at least, there is no capital gains tax payable on a vehicle for personal use provided you're not a dealer or selling more than a few cars a year. With regards to the Diablo, I'd be interested to see the figures with the maintenance costs, CGT liability, registration, insurance and storage.

But you can't put a cost on the joy of ownership, and that really is the reason you bought it I suspect. I cannot fathom the possibility of owing an exotic and wincing every time I pressed the starter thinking every mile is taking value off this crate. Each to their own and far be it from me to tell someone how to run their life.

Back to the OPs question. I think this thread has run long enough for someone to provide a compelling case for his Ferrari "Investment" however I do not see one post that supports his proposition with any real data in the current market.

 

Also depends on time frame 458/575 are really too 'new'. Maybe in another 20 or 30 years might rise a lot.

Speciale in UK is around 300K, Boxer might be a bit more maybe 10 or 20 % ,if you can find one .

 

I'm not a value expert but
Speciale is the ultimate version of the last breed. NA V8. The most balanced middle engine V8 car ever created as Ferrari said. I have no reason to doubt about it. 458 itself is one of the finest Ferraris ever made, just looked at their prices. They are double than 430. As long as there is gas Speciale will gain in value. Wish could buy my own but by that time would reach 500k.
Otherwise I would consider CS or Scuderia.

 

That might hold true if Ferrari manufactured 300 Speciales. But at 3,000, I cannot see that happening, there's just too many. It will be very interesting to review this thread in 10 years. Maybe sooner!

 

I don’t see a car like the 458 being an investment car right now especially because they mass produced them. Maybe in 50 years when a lot of them are crashed but not anytime soon. There prices are high now because of inflation I can see prices for them go down.


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Just wait for the hybrids and electric ones to flood the market and we shall see

 

Your right but it will be the ones that have the gated shifters and the Naturally aspirated V8 and V12 to bring in the money. 458 is too new of a car it’s taken classic gated Ferraris decades to get to where they are now. Compared to the older Ferrari the 458 isn’t an investment it’s an enjoyment right now. If it’s for an investment buy it and leave it in storage for the next 60 years.


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Well BMW made over 17k E30 M3s and that didn't' seem to affect the nice examples getting to six figures. 3k cars is not many for 7+ billion people.

 

Correct. And how many of those are nice examples?

I am guessing I have seen 20 in my lifetime. I have seen 1 that I would consider buying. The rest were poorly maintained abused rubbish. Put one of those up for sale and see how well it goes.

 

Wrong on so many levels..

 

The chairman of BMW hosted the preview of there new EV. He mentioned that the job was done but overall the carbon foot print from go to end of the EV was far worse than a standard petrol vehicle.
Where the hell are you going to get rid of a couple of million batteries.

 

But fgt which is made 4000+ is going up in value as well, mostly thanks to its MT. Right now, MT and raw experience is all fad. I am debating myself on 458sp vs Fgt.

What do you guys recommend?

 

Have you driven a FGT? I have a FGT. I love it, and it’s the car that I would keep before all the rest (which include a 765LT, 812, Pista, Viper ACR, and STO on order). That said, the FGT is very slow by modern standards. If massive thrust is something you value above all else, the FGT is a poor fit.

 

A few years back a BMW honcho was introducing a new EV and he told people not to buy it because the company loses thousands of dollars on each one.

 

Tesla lost an average of $1,759 per vehicle in 2020, except for regulatory credits they received of $1.6 billion, which turned their loss of $879 million into a profit of $721 million. It gets these credits for EVs, especially the long range Zero Emission Credits. Tesla gets them for free and sells them to other auto makers for 100% profit. Stellantis bought 2.3 billion euros of credits from Tesla in the last 2 1/2 years to meet their emission credit target. The danger for Tesla is that if other auto makers start to meet their emission targets, they will have a harder time selling their ZECs, so it will start to affect their profits. That's why Michael Burry took a 1/2 billion short position. Bottom line? EVs are expensive to make, the retail price is artificially low due to credits and these will go away over time.

The idea that EVs will erode the 'investment' (I hate to use the word investment with a car) potential of a Ferrari is an interesting subject. Perhaps with the newer Ferraris and the higher production models, there is a greater risk than, say with the out of production cars, especially the classics. For those, they will never make any more, they are arguably more beautiful than any modern day car and there is something about that flat plan crankshaft noise that stirs the emotions like no EV can.

One can only speculate. But if you buy a Ferrari simply because you want one and it puts a smile on your face when you go downstairs to the garage to fire it up into life, then that's all you need.

 

Your car is still stock right? The extra 100+ hp from a pulley, tune, and exhaust really changes it’s standing against most modern supercars, not from a dig, but it has tremendous acceleration from 40 mph to well over 100. But the superior driving characteristics are kept. But because you have many other choices, I can understand keeping it stock.

The negative (like with all aftermarket exhausts is added resonance between 2,500 and 3,000 rpm) is some droning.

 

FWIW- A 575 Manual just popped up on BaT.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2003-ferrari-575-maranello-22/

 

In EU they are planning to retire all gas/diesel cars by 2035. Not sure if this include exotics but doesn't sound good anyway.

 

Wonder how realistic it will be.
They will need to keep gas engines for long range driving maybe as rental option.

 

Nope, removing the front driveshafts in a half baked attempt to make it 2wd is not the same, you still have a heavy front differential and U joints for attachment of the front drive shafts on the hub splines adding un sprung weight, Its a botched car and not the same as the early 2wd.

Many are not fans of the Nissan 300Z front headlights, they are outdated not even Zenon, the flip up lights belong on the Diablo its a classic if you want modern get a Aventador.


The technical aspects Diablo is under braked etc who cares, the same can be said with the narrow body LP400 vs the Anniversary Countach which will run circles around it which is worth more?

The early purest models always bring the higher demand once they get past the in betweener status of being a semi modern car and the newer models performance is more preferred but that slowy fades as new models such as Aventador SV are vastlysuperior in performance. Look at the 365BB vs 512BB values another example and the 512BB is vastly improved in every way, dry sump better cooling etc..

 

Later Diablos are just better cars....whether you remove the 4WD components or not, and that shows up in the pricing as well.

The Nissan headlights thing people bring up to try to disparage the updated Diablos is quite funny. Lamborghini is well known for outsourcing parts from everywhere when it made sense. Why bother to design a component for less than 700 cars when you can buy one somewhere else? By the late 90s, pop-ups where not only passe but made illegal in the US and other countries. They made for a fresh clean look. AND I certainly can appreciate a part of that car that will always be available...LOL.

I certainly care about an under braked car that I intend to drive hard.