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Ferrari Colombo V12 Displacement Query

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by Al M, Mar 30, 2019.

  1. Al M

    Al M Rookie

    Mar 30, 2019
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    Bob M
    Hello

    Interested to know whether the Ferrari Colombo V12 was capable of being further enlarged beyond its maximum near 5-litre displacement in the Ferrari 412i, whether built into the design by Ferrari themselves or via some specialist tuning company?

    Regards
     
  2. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
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    Lyon (FR)
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    R. Emin
    Displacement between 400/412 is the same, so it did not evolve during the last decade.Would it be possible to have a longer stroke: not sure as the piston skirt (not sure this is the correct term) is almost hitting the crankshaft.
     
  3. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    Displacement of the 400 was 4823cc and the 412 4943cc. 412 had a 1mm larger bore at 82mm.
     
  4. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
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    R. Emin
    I meant the stroke of the 400/412 is the same, and is the longest made by the factory.

    Regarding the bore, Standard size is 81mm, first oversize is ~81,03mm (not sure for the exact size but in any case close to 81mm), second oversize is 82mm. Some manufacturers are producing 81.5mm bore.

    Both 365 and 400 do use the 81mm pistons (or the above mentioned oversizes). 412 is only based on the second oversize (82mm) pistons.

    On my car I've got some 81.5mm pistons and the clearance between two cylinders is quite thin (say 6/7mm???), which does not leave much room for the sleeves (remember the sleeves are thinner on the bottom). 82mm was probably the best they could get out of this block without sacrificing reliability. Maybe one could gain an additional millimetre, but this would be really marginal (418i?).

    Please note that I only saw a single 365 wide open, and I am not sure the pistons were stock, but on these, the the crown looks much more aggressive (400 looks flat) with deeper valve recesses. I also presume the skirt is different, as a piston made for the 365 hits the crankshaft when installed on a 400. So using 365 82mm pistons on a 400/412 is not as easy as it seems.

    All in all, upgrading to 82mm is well documented, higher compression not so much. But to answer your question, quite a few hp can be obtained out of this engine : on a 365 GTC4, Carobu did use a hybrid columbo (412 lower block+365 heads) with high compression cylinders (365 profile?) and aggressive camshafts (made possible due to the use of carbs). 410hp .
     
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  5. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
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    Dec 23, 2007
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    North Pole AK
    How much did this cost?
     
  6. Al M

    Al M Rookie

    Mar 30, 2019
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    Bob M
    Had it been feasible, an 82mm stroke would have allowed for a theoretical maximum displacement of about 5197cc. Though so far it seems there is no chance of the V12 being capable of enlargement nearer to 6-litres.
     
  7. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Bob,

    This may explain why there are some older Ferrari's having their engines transplanted with a newer, modern, and more powerful Ferrari power plant. If done properly, the original engine, etc can be removed and carefully preserved and then the new transplant installed while ensuring that any changes to accommodate the newer drive train are completely reversible.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  8. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
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    R. Emin
  9. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
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    Dec 23, 2007
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  10. Al M

    Al M Rookie

    Mar 30, 2019
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    Bob M
    Can understand the appeal of restomods and transplanting newer Ferrari engines into older models.

    A bit surprised about the relatively limited displacement potential of the Colombo V12 in comparison to V12s from rivals, especially since it formed the basis for the 60-degree V6 in the Innocenti 186 GT prototype and inline-4 in the ASA 1000 GT "Ferrarina". Half a 5197cc V12 would roughly equates to a 2598cc V6 and 1/3rd a V12 equates to a 1733cc inline-4 respectively, with a 1.8-litre inline-4 being studied by ASA before the latter closed its doors.
     
  11. wrxmike

    wrxmike F1 Veteran
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    Mar 20, 2004
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    The Colombo V12 started off with a 1.5 litre displacement (1947) (55 x 52.5mm) , then went to 1.9, 2 litres and 3 litres in 1957. The final Colombo engine was the series 209 with 71mm stroke / 77mm bore which gave 3.967 capcity for the 400 Superamerica.
    A revised, Colombo style engine was introduced in 1964 with bore centres increased from 90 to 94mm and ( 330GT ) and finished with the Type 245, a 4.4 litre (81 x 7 1mm) for the 365 GT2 +2. The Colombo & later Colombo "style" engines all had a single cam per bank.

    The 1966 Type 226 engine was a new design, 4 cam engine ( 3.286 L, 77mm x 58.5mm) introduced with the 275 GTB/4 which evolved to in to the type 251 ( Daytona 365 GTB/4 4.4L 81 x 71mm).

    In 1973 Ferrari introduced the type F101 engine, based on the same cylinder dimension and 94mm cylinder centre distances as the type 251 Daytona engine, with the same billet crankshaft and four stud main bearing caps. The heads were completely new, with different valve angles and repositioned ports and lubrication was wet sump ( not dry sump as per the Daytona ). The F101 engine started as a 4.4L, then went to type F101A (4.8 litre) and its final form was the 412 4.934 litre (82 x78 mmm).

    Its a stretch to call the F101 engine a Colombo as there are no interchangeable parts, the bore spacing is different as are the heads etc although they are both V12'. But the F101 can be considered as an evolution of the initial Colombo concept. The F101 series was produced for 16 years ( 1973 to 1989 ) amongst one of Ferrari's longest lived engine families.

    Sports car ( ie Ferrari) engine capacity in the 1940,s 50's and 60's was laregly influenced by the prevailing racing rules, there was no point in making an engine capacity that was not going to be race eligible.

    M
     
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  12. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
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    Plop a 550 engine in it with ITB's and away you go :)
     
  13. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
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  14. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Ive seen pics of it before. It's gotta be much quicker than the current anchor under the hood, just maybe not up to their expectations. It would definitely benefit from the plenums. I said ITB's because of hood clearance not knowing if it would physically fit and the last thing I would do is install a scoop or bulge the hood to clear it.
     
  15. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
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    This 400/575 "chimera" is also lightweight. This was probably a challenge as all the saved weight is more on the back than the front of the car. This is probably the reason why the motor was moved backward in order to keep the car balanced (the stock 400 with half tank is perfectly 50/50 balanced). But why not buy a 456 directly?

    To be frank I'd rather keep the engine bay "stock"... The lateral location of the intakes allows for some advanced modifications for whoever has the guts to butcher the k-jet (remove the disc sensor and find a way to directly actuate the k-jet lever without restricting the airflow and allow for aggressive camshafts).

    More realistically, I'd rather modify the intake timing by 2° to 4°, lower WUR control pressure (see UTCITS WUR tuning guide for aggressive camshafts), more slippery converter, nice stainless exhaust and oversize cylinders. If money is not an issue, one could add to the list the shorter rear axle ratio of 400i gen2. This is not going to be a Daytona, but that's the sort of modifications that can be performed with stock parts while the engine is being overhauled.
     
  16. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Dec 26, 2001
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    Yes if money is not an issue....

    With those mods you would have the second most expensive 400 build, second only to that yellow car!
     
  17. islerodreaming

    islerodreaming Formula Junior

    Aug 11, 2007
    611
    What's Mark (MK-e) at: 5.4lts but TR heads and lots of welding..
     
  18. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
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    R. Emin

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