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Ferrari and FIA engine settlement

Discussion in 'F1' started by A348W, Mar 3, 2020.

  1. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    Obviously, if you let an issue to drag on, and don't react to it immediatly, it soon become "last year", doesn't it?
    The FIA being the referee in F1 is supposed to be pro-active and not sweep infringements under the carpet.
    Yes, we know the FIA can't be bothered to really tackle Ferrari.

    Also, when at team is found cheating at one race, it is reasonably suspected to have it done before.
    Remember when Tyrrell was found to have used lead ballast at one race, and was disqualified for the whole year?
     
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  2. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    You are absolutely correct: the fan car was not banned.
    Bernie Ecclestone was simply told by the FIA that they would alter the rules to ban it in future.
    Since it didn't make sense to develop any further, Gordon Murray removed it from the car for the next GP.
    For the record, Lauda and Brabham kept the win.
     
  3. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
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    Well, last year Renault was found to be using an illegal brake system and only got disqualified for one race. Consistency, ah, ah!

    The problem here is that it seems that the trick was so complex that FIA really didn´t know if there was an infringment until now. Arriving so late, and taking into consideration the potentially dubious ways they needed to use to investigate that engine (maybe a whistleblower, maybe they had to reach an agreement with Ferrari to let them know how it works) it looks like they were more interested in closing the loopholes than in penalizing anybody.
     
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  4. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    This issue was driven last year by Red Bull and Honda more than any other team:

    --Discontent rumbled throughout much of the season and the issue came to a head at the US Grand Prix in October when the FIA issued a rules clarification in response to a detailed series of questions from Red Bull.

    These centred on whether it was possible to interfere with the mandatory fuel-flow meter in ways that made it bypass the regulation limit of 100kg per hour.
    The FIA clarification was issued on the morning of qualifying in Austin, and later that day a run of six consecutive Ferrari pole positions came to an end. The team did not set a pole position in any of the remaining two races in Brazil and Abu Dhabi either.--
     
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  5. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2003
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    Time to get the popcorn out. This will be an interesting story...
     
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  6. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    If it goes to court, yes !!!
    But I think it will be dealt with differently, by the FIA looking the other way for a while if one or several teams break the rules.

    All this 10 days from the 1st GP !!!
     
  7. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie
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    I seem to recall briefly a famous rally team that came up with an ingenious method of bypassing the fixed orifice on the induction side of the engine and was subsequently banned and stripped of all its points. It was a blatant attempt to bypass the regulations.

    Now if the regulations are there to be exploited, as many have done in the past then the FIA have always clarified the situation with a technical directive. DAS in my opinion is a genius solution to the handling of a car but is clearly not an intention of the rules, that said the rules should be water tight and leave no room for uncertainty. By not defining the steering components by definition under the articles of regulations then the FIA have screwed up!

    I like to see fair play and if SF are found to be in "severe" breach of the 2019 technical regulations (nobody knows for certain what that was) then the axe must fall. As a life long SF supporter then that would sadden me immensely and moreover it would not do the sport much good either.

    It seems the FIA and SF have scored points against each other and by all accounts it's a draw so for me the decision has been made correctly. It was open to interpretation just like DAS. To divulge the internal secrets of the 2019 engine would in my opinion compromise the technical achievements made by the team. DAS has been banned for 2021 so playing on the same field then the mercedes system, design and intent of the device should be made clear too.

    Of course the others want to see the facts, it would certainly give them a edge over SF engine design, if it does transpire that they have to under a legal judgement, then i can see SF being really pee'd off and quite rightly protest strongly. Being the most dominant force in F!, regardless of the Mercedes teams successes over the years, they come nowhere near the charisma of the SF outfit.

    Possibly a couple reasons why its been settled this way is how did the other teams know of the design. Is this another stepneygate,are there much further ramifications if the truth is known.
     
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  8. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    Sorry, but this is were I don't follow you.

    How can you legislate against an alleged offense, if you don't show exactly what it is ?

    I remember Max Mosley arranging a press conference to explain why Toyota was banned from rallying by demonstrating their clever device for all to see.

    Now Jean Todt should also publicly come clear, and show the whole world what Ferrari has actually done that is not allowed. It's his job to do so.

    Actually, Binotto should be present to take questions and explain himself; it's his job too as team principal.

    If not, the whole thing becomes very foggy and the FIA cannot be trusted.
     
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  9. sp1der

    sp1der Formula 3
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    Actually it seems Ferrari outfoxes the FIA just the constant bleating of other teams forced investigation, the FIA could not find anything after Monaco or whatever race it was and should have just left alone for the other teams to figure out the same innovation.
     
  10. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    Yes agree. The FIA has set this up nicely lol
     
  11. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
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    I mean FIA should've at least made it clear what was legal or illegal...isn't that pretty black and white? e.g. No, Ferrari was not running mods that bypassed sensor readings. And that won't necessarily compromise anything proprietary?
     
  12. ypsilon

    ypsilon Formula 3

    May 4, 2008
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    DF1 a couple of post back summarised it well.

    If Ferrari breached the rules by trying to be clever and got caught then they must sit on the blisters.

    The FIA handeld this very badly IMO. FIA should've dealt with it last season when it mattered, when it was relevant. The risk is that it will influence the new season, not a situation F1 wants, even more so considering the Mercedes dominance.
     
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  13. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
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    Probably it wasn't so easy as legal/ilegal and the agreement with Ferrari included not stating publicily that it was ilegal. FIA doesn't want to look like the fools who were outsmarted at their own game either.

    Or maybe Ferrari is still using at least part of the trick and want to keep it for themselves.
     
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  14. sp1der

    sp1der Formula 3
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    Just close the loop hole just like Merc with special wheels etc, as I said in an earlier post the FIA under Jean Todt has been a joke.
     
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  15. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/148542/how-ferrari-and-the-fia-reached-a-settlement

    Last week's bombshell announcement from the FIA that it had concluded an investigation into Ferrari's Formula 1 power unit came as a surprise to all in the paddock.

    That not least because of the use of the phrase "settlement", where the implication appeared to be that there was some kind of trade-off between the two parties that had allowed Ferrari to escape sanctions.

    The seven non-Ferrari affiliated teams made their frustration at the lack of communication clear in the joint statement that they issued on Wednesday.

    In it, they said that "an international sporting regulator has the responsibility to act with the highest standards of governance, integrity and transparency.

    "After months of investigations that were undertaken by the FIA only following queries raised by other teams, we strongly object to the FIA reaching a confidential settlement agreement with Ferrari to conclude this matter.

    "Therefore, we hereby state publicly our shared commitment to pursue full and proper disclosure."

    So why did it all happen amid such secrecy in this case? The procedure used was an unusual one, but is outlined in the FIA's own Judicial and Disciplinary rules document.

    This document explains how an investigation can be conducted behind closed doors as an initial step, before the FIA decides either to drop it or to proceed further by taking the matter to the International Tribunal for a more formal process.

    In the current case the FIA chose not to proceed to the IT - for reasons that remain unclear.

    The FIA notes: "The prosecuting body may, either at its own initiative or at the request of any interested party, conduct an inquiry into any actions or conduct of a person under the jurisdiction of the FIA and suspected of having committed one of the offences set out in Article 8.2."

    That particular article contains a long list of possible offences, but the basic one involved here is simply having "contravened the statutes and regulations of the FIA."

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    In setting up an investigation the prosecuting body can "appoint a person of its choice to represent or assist it in the conduct of an investigation", and may also call upon technical delegates or stewards in the process.

    At the conclusion of the investigation, the FIA can either proceed by taking the case to the International Tribunal, close the investigation, or - in Ferrari's case - reach a settlement with the defendant.

    The FIA can also grant immunity for those who cooperate "in good faith", but can be revoked if it is found that the evidence given is false.

    As noted immunity was not mentioned in last week's statement, but the wording certainly suggested a positive co-operation, and perhaps a hint that Ferrari had in effect highlighted some loopholes that can now be addressed, along with a curious reference to the Italian team providing help with future research on emissions and sustainability.

    However, one paragraph within the judicial rules is a crucial one, and it explains why in the Ferrari statement the FIA also said "the specifics of the agreement will remain between the two parties."

    The rules state: "The prosecuting body and all persons taking part in the inquiry are bound by an obligation of confidentiality vis‐à‐vis third parties not concerned with the inquiry.

    The first sentence suggests an interesting legal question: are the seven F1 teams who do not use Ferrari engines "third parties not concerned with the inquiry?"

    One suspects that Toto Wolff, Christian Horner and anyone else whose cars were beaten by an SF90 over the course of last season, would disagree.

    It's also worth noting the section in the rules that references confidentiality doesn't specify that it results specifically from a settlement - so that difference doesn't explain why no details have been forthcoming.

    What legal steps will the angry seven teams take next? And how will the FIA respond? This story is far from over yet.
     
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  16. polishhammer83

    Sep 30, 2012
    42
    Toyota, one of the greatest cheating schemes of all time.

    Sent from my Umidigi One Max using Tapatalk
     
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  17. furoni

    furoni F1 Veteran

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    Toyota it was....
     
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  18. TifosiUSA

    TifosiUSA F1 Veteran

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    Not happening no matter how much you wish it would, Ferrari hater.
     
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  19. classic308

    classic308 F1 Veteran

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    If they stripped Ferrari of all their points to placate the other teams then Ferrari quits F1 and ceases to supply the other teams.

    then it enters FOrmula E as that is where the future is anyways....
     
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  20. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Yes Iam thinking along those lines.
    The key word in this is settlement, so why. Well maybe Ferrari had a legitimate break through with the increased output of their PU, maybe along side an illegal one that has been exposed, so in that scenario the FIA is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

    In other words it would be unfair of the FIA to be total transparent, to the point of giving away Ferrari's legitimate break through, but on the flip side they have to do something if there is illegal advantages, however you can be pretty sure there has been something amiss, due to last years PU's performance variations.

    Or is the tech that has helped them improve come from another source, and the tech doesn’t belong to Ferrari, and now too many know, and could or have already blown the whistle.

    Whatever the case something fishy has been going on, and the FIA seem to want to bury it, and it now seems it's backfiring on them.

    https://f1-insider.com/en/formula1/teams-unite-against-fia-and-ferrari/
     
  21. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    I hope the 7 signatories take the FIA to court and blow this thing out of the water.

    The Almighty FIA needs to be taken to task and the irregularities fully exposed.
     
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  22. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    Problem is it should have never been allowed in the first place and defined as “steering” as it doesn’t influence any direction of the car. Should be in the same category as camber so a suspension adjustment which is not allowed without tools. Then they made it worse by banning it for the following year.
    When Ferrari kept finding the suspected loopholes with their engine FIA kept changing the goalposts midseason with new and ever stricter controls, instead of introducing them the following year.
     
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  23. fer312t

    fer312t Formula Junior

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    The FIA has now formally responded to Teams' statement:

    "The FIA has conducted detailed technical analysis on the Scuderia Ferrari Power Unit as it is entitled to do for any competitor in the FIA Formula One World Championship.

    The extensive and thorough investigations undertaken during the 2019 season raised suspicions that the Scuderia Ferrari PU could be considered as not operating within the limits of the FIA regulations at all times. The Scuderia Ferrari firmly opposed the suspicions and reiterated that its PU always operated in compliance with the regulations.The FIA was not fully satisfied but decided that further action would not necessarily result in a conclusive case due to the complexity of the matter and the material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach.

    To avoid the negative consequences that a long litigation would entail especially in light of the uncertainty of the outcome of such litigations and in the best interest of the Championship and of its stakeholders, the FIA, in compliance with Article 4 (ii) of its Judicial and Disciplinary Rules (JDR), decided to enter into an effective and dissuasive settlement agreement with Ferrari to terminate the proceedings.

    This type of agreement is a legal tool recognised as an essential component of any disciplinary system and is used by many public authorities and other sport federations in the handling of disputes.

    The confidentiality of the terms of the settlement agreement is provided for by Article 4 (vi) of the JDR.

    The FIA will take all necessary action to protect the sport and its role and reputation as regulator of the FIA Formula One World Championship."


    https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement-following-communication-seven-formula-1-teams
     
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  24. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 Veteran
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    Well, there ya go.

    The FIA could'nt prove Ferrari's "illegality".

    All those oppose, stay in your box....please.
     
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  25. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
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    Thats a lot of words to say almost nothing ...
     
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