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F40 vs Porsche Carrera GT

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by RomanD', May 16, 2020.

  1. RomanD'

    RomanD' Karting

    Nov 5, 2012
    96
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Roman
    Hi guys,

    does anyone have ownership experience of either car?

    I’m particularly interested in things I couldn’t figure out by taking a car for a spin. I won’t use the car as a Sunday morning drive weapon since I’m away for work most of the time. I do road-trips around Europe and use the car I arrived with as wheels at the destination. So, very welcome to share opinion in general but especially appreciated would be your input on:
    • Real life cost of maintenance
    • Overheating issues
    • Reliability on long drives (I had my gtc4lusso stranded at the dealer in Monaco for a week once since it couldn’t stomach a drive from London)
    • A/C performance (South of France in July/August)
    • Has valet parking people ruined any of those famous CGT clutches? (Don’t send me hate mail, unfortunately sometimes there is no convenient way around valet parking my car)
    Many thanks in advance and hope everyone is well during the whole covid madness,

    Roman
     
  2. energy88

    energy88 F1 World Champ
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    Jan 21, 2012
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    You should consider that the F40 is an over 30-year old car. Persons on here who have them are getting into maintenance issues that are time dependent. No longer a road or daily driver car. In a similar vein, the CGT is "only" a near 20-year old car. In the early 2000s when they were new, you would see quite a few out on the roads. Same thing seems to be happening with the Lexus LFAs- you only see them on weekends now.

    Sounds like you may want to consider a more modern car that you can consume and have a warranty to help defer operating costs.
     
    ross likes this.
  3. RomanD'

    RomanD' Karting

    Nov 5, 2012
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    #3 RomanD', May 16, 2020
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
    Many thanks for your response.

    I would imagine that way older cars are generally capable of 1500 mile roadtrip once a year and getting you to dinners for 2 weeks.

    Re modern car, I have a modern Ferrari. I would really appreciate advice on two cars in the title though.
     
  4. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Mar 25, 2002
    31,079
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    have not driven or owned a cgt.
    but have had an F40 for a while.

    maintenance not so terrible for a car of this value - probably averages out to be about $5k/year, but that comes in lumps of 10-50k depending on what the issue is.
    some parts are becoming harder to find or very expensive - fuel bladders for example.

    it is not a difficult car to drive at low speed, but at higher revs, you better know what you are doing.
    its not a particularly comfortable car - the euro version like mine does not have adjustable seats, the steering wheel does not adjust and sits at an odd angle, and the ac is only ok. there is no radio, there is no sound deadening, and if you have the tubi like i do, it is loud enough to hamper conversation.
    altho i have the luggage, i would not want to drive it further than geneva to monaco.
    i drove mine from london to geneva in one go, and could barely walk the next day. if you have ever driven a track car, well that is just about what it is like - so if driving a 6+ hour stint at le mans sounds relaxing to you, then by all means give it a go ;)

    i would never let a valet drive it - the consequences could ruin your day.

    it is not a car for poseurs - altho i know some poseurs who own them.

    i think you need to figure out what your objective is......

    if it is to experience one of the all time greatest supercars that was ever conceived, and drive it with courage around the corniche and get to genoa in time for lunch, then go for it.
    if it is to look good pulling up to the cafe de paris in monaco, then there are easier cars to do that in.
     
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  5. RomanD'

    RomanD' Karting

    Nov 5, 2012
    96
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Roman
    Many thanks for your response.

    Well, objective is very easy. I stopped living in London full time but since I’m coming back every couple of months for a long weekend and I typically do a roadtrip couple of times per year, keeping a practical car there is somewhat irrational. Within those long weekends I will do 2-3 trips to track events per year, couple of attempts to find a decent outside the city and a roadtrip to SoF.

    For example, this year the roadtrip went as follows: London to Rheims to Cap-Ferrat (where I stayed for a week or so) to Portofino to Garda to Steinbach-am-Attersee. Then I left my car at my friend, got back in a month and drove to London via Munich.

    Obviously, legs can be shortened to sub-6h by adding more destinations on the way to maintain back integrity. The point is that while there are plenty of great roads along the way for pleasure driving purposes, you would still want to drive the car you see for a month per year to dinners. I don’t think I took a taxi once over the last 7 years or so around SoF region since I started driving there. And valet in some cases is pretty much unavoidable.

    What can go wrong with a valet apart from things like scratches that can happen to any car? Given that F40 has fairly normal clutch and is generally fairly basic machine.

    Does A/C work well when properly sorted? I drove the car early spring, so I literally have no clue and reports online are very mixed.
     
  6. bakes17

    bakes17 Rookie

    Sep 25, 2012
    20
    UK
    Hi,
    I owned a CGT for 18 months and have just bought an F40.
    The CGT feels like a modern day Porsche. It really is a great car. I did about 5 track days and it’s brilliant on track. Capable of sticking with modern day GT3RS although it’s only held back by the tyres. Theres no sticky track rubber in its size.
    Great neutral handling balance though in the modern rubber so no spikes handling issues hey were reported to have on the older tyre compounds.
    Nice to have option to take roof out for a long toad trip but then you have no storage space as wills the boot. Do you travel alone? If so you can use the spare seat for luggage.
    With the roof off it sounds amazing. Roof on not so. Mostly clattering transmission noises.
    Comfy for long drives.
    HOWEVER. The clutch ruins the ownership experience. Whatever anyone says it’s a right total pita. Pulling onto fast moving traffic/roundabouts is a scary heart in mouth moment. Hill starts are a *****. Apart from ruining your clutch a valet will struggle to pull away in it.
    Many people on the continent put big mikes on them though and so if you really want one I see no issues with the purpose you want it for. No front lift and nose is lower than F40 a bit so could be an issue.
    Maintenance fine if you do it regularly. They have issues when left for ages not being used and everything dries out. Don’t get a low mileage car with **** history. I’ve seen £40k bills. Get a car that’s been serviced regularly. Mine was the Cobalt blue car and it went to reading every year of its life. It’s rare but they are out there.
    Early days in the F40 for me. However first impressions are that it’s a doddle to drive in comparison. Better ride height even on the non adjust car. More luggage space. Valet would be able to park it no issue. It’s bloody cool and I love it.
    F40 you can jump in and drive at sensible speeds without having to worry or think too much. At high speed you have to really be concentrating and it’s rewarding and exhausting.
    CGT you have to concentrate on every journey and consider where you are going. It’s a more stressful car for daily driving IMHO.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  7. Karimsaid

    Karimsaid Rookie

    Oct 2, 2014
    14
    Hi Roman,
    Excellent choice. The F40 is amazing but after a while will exhaust you on longer trips (unless you are young and like hard cars). Also summers in France or Italy will get you heating issues. The CGT is mind boggling and so quick and without the roof and an excellent Bose system is just almost impossible to beat. Wait for a while until pressure builds up on prices and then get one from Germany (cheaper than UK). Finally add a sports exhaust to it and you are set (get in touch with Manu at Scuderia Systems). Good luck and look forward to the good times ahead of you...
     
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  8. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,504
    London
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    Mark
    Morning Roman, I have to agree with Ross about the F40, its a track focussed weapon. It is also my favourite car for driver satisfaction (frequent short adrenaline rushes), but I wouldn't want to drive for 6 hours to a weekend hotel, the thought of the return journey would spoil your 2 nights away!

    If your budget is flexible to the upside maybe you should consider an F50, it will do everything you want and a lot more, plus it is an incredibly comfortable car to drive, 6 hour cruises are a pleasure, then you have a track weapon when needed, seats are very comfortable, Aircon works - but it is also a hardtop or a convertible (but you can't just swap the hardtop roof in a few minutes, it a pain - but you can leave the canopy top on and its totally acceptable and easy to remove for open top motoring).

    Watch Chris Harris's video comparing the two, yes he loves the F40 more - but his reasons are different to your needs.......


    Dickie Meaden is an excellent motoring journalist, here are his views on the Carrera GT.....


    I have driven the Carrera GT several times, but never owned one, I still have very fond memories of it and plan to revisit it as a bucket list car one day.

    I manage the Ferrari Bloodline Collection for Dr Karim Said, in the collection we have a 288GTO, F40, F50 (2 of them) and an Enzo. Karim has owned an F40 and a Carrera GT back to back, I will try to get him hooked up with you and so you can discuss the merits of each car. The CGT & F40 are the two cars Karim has actually drove the most - as in thousands of miles in real world situations: used as a daily driver, long trips to the South of France, even just popping to the shops.

    Here is the Top Gear video on the collection...
    https://www.topgear.com/videos/top-gear-magazine-laferrari-bloodline

    Give me a shout if I can be of any help, I am based in London, and given my exposure to these cars I have many contacts or sources if you need anything.

    all the best
    Mark
     
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  9. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
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    Brilliant, like magic he is there :)
     
  10. George330

    George330 Formula Junior

    Oct 19, 2009
    892
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    George
    I have owned both cars and I love them both. In my opinion neither car is suited for your intended use (long trips in Europe), although both cars are amazing and in my opinion the CGT is the modern F40

    1. Ground clearance: the CGT is almost unusable. I had the Ruf suspension lifter on it and it does help without ruining the geometry, but without a lifter the car bottoms out pretty much everywhere: petrol stations, car parks, speed bumps, take your pick. The F40 is better, even without the adjustable suspension, but it is still very low. Don’t buy an adjustable suspension car, mine had it and it was malfunctioning all the time.

    2. Air-conditioning: the CGT is much better. The F40 gets very stuffy over long drives, but then perhaps it was my car only.

    3. Comfort: both cars are not what you’d say comfortable, but I would take the CGT over the F40. The clutch is a pain although I learned to use it without any problems, but the ride quality is tolerable, access to the car is fine and being able to take the roof off is a big plus. The F40 will give you muscle twitch on your left leg if you get stuck in stop-start traffic for 30 minutes and it is an altogether heavier car to operate. Neither can has luggage space (the front boot of the CGT is a joke), so unless you are travelling without a passenger you wont know where to put your bags.

    4. Driving: Both cars are epic. The F40 is still one of the performance revelations of automotive history, it still feels rocket fast and if you respect it it is an amazing handling car: light, grippy, full of feel. Avoid wet roads and the temptation to give it lots of gas exiting roundabouts as the turbos come in suddenly and this car can break traction even in fourth gear (as I discovered when I collected mine from DK Engineering). The CGT is easier to drive 90% of the time, with tons of power, amazing noise (beats F40 hands down) and predictable handling. The remaining 10% is a twitchy car that balances on knife edge and in my personal experience you go over that edge suddenly and unpleasantly.

    5. Servicing: Most of what’s already been written here is correct. In general I found the F40 fairly reasonable to maintain, provided that you do it regularly and don’t pay main dealer prices (most of them don’t know how to service it properly anyway). The top independents are better. Fuel cells are pricey, alternatives with more modern materials that do not need frequent changes are available but I haven’t looked into them. The CGT main expense is the clutch. Check the car you buy for clutch condition. Porsche will measure it for you. If it is fried, it will be expensive (I remember being quoted £16’000 by Porsche Reading years ago, not sure if this is the price now). If you don’t know how to operate it (no gas until the car starts rolling, even on a hill) it will last days, not years. The rest of the servicing is more expensive than the average Porsche but not dissimilar to V12 Ferraris. My Enzo was much pricier to service.

    6. Future Value: F40 hands down. One of the greatest cars ever made, it will always be in demand. The CGT was made in similar numbers but has a smaller audience.

    What would I buy: Neither. If you want a car to do long trips in, buy a 918. You can get one for the same price as an F40, it is super-comfortable, has similar luggage space issues, but everything else works and you will enjoy your high speed trips more. If you don’t need a limited edition hyper car, get an 812. Almost as fast and super comfortable! Since it is a depreciating car you won’t care about putting 50,000 km on it...try selling a F40 or CGT with 50-70,000kms...not easy




    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
  11. RomanD'

    RomanD' Karting

    Nov 5, 2012
    96
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Roman


    Thanks a lot, mega input.

    Is A/C strong in F40 when properly sorted? I don’t mind spartan interior, crashy ride and lack of luxuries (as one would do in early 30s), I mostly care about not being drenched in sweat on a 6h drive.
     
  12. RomanD'

    RomanD' Karting

    Nov 5, 2012
    96
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Roman
    F50 unfortunately would be too much of a stretch for me. And then at £2mm mark, I’ll be too tempted by LaFerrari, especially if I already own CGT or F40 by then.
     
  13. Karimsaid

    Karimsaid Rookie

    Oct 2, 2014
    14
    Good insights from George330. So now your range is expanding to an F50, 918, 812... I might as well add another, namely the 599 GTO.

    Funny that 275GTB (who is extremely knowledgeable and can help you on many fronts) was messaging you at the same time as I was.

    If you decide on a CGT, think of the unusual red colour
     

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  14. RomanD'

    RomanD' Karting

    Nov 5, 2012
    96
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    Roman
    Thank you, very insightful.

    The point is that I want a manual without excessive electronics. Both cars fit into what I can afford without being unreasonable or using financing. I love how both of them drive. CGT I had on my bedroom wall (am reasonably young) and F40 is, well, it’s F40. So, rational arguments on getting 812 are not gonna work here :)

    I still have GTC4Lusso parked in London which made sense to own when I could daily it. As an “occasion” car (even if the occasion is an annual 1500-2000 mile roadtrip), current crop of V12 Ferraris really doesn’t do it for me. I hate that they are quiet (even compared to FF/F12), rear wheel steering bothers me etc.

    Re depreciation, I don’t care all that much but then I don’t see how I would do more than 10000 miles over say 4 years.
     
  15. RomanD'

    RomanD' Karting

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    Ah yes, I’m probably in the minority but I think CGT wears red better than many Ferraris. Love it.
     
  16. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #16 ross, May 17, 2020
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
    some great feedback in this thread - only fchat yields this kind of first hand comments !

    now that i have read the op's responses, i think another warning is in order for the the F40 and that is that it does NOT like to sit for long periods of time and then be woken up and thrashed.
    once you get the car sorted, it needs to be driven - even just shortly - at least 2x per month, if not weekly. if you let it sit for weeks, depending on the condition of the garage, you will return to find all sorts of things slightly out of tune. stuttering idle, check engine lights flashing, ac needing to be re-upped, and then other issues that need sorting.

    i also want to add that my negative comment on valet's is not that they cannot drive it, altho your clutch might suffer, but more that IF they damage any part, it quickly gets to be a nightmare to source it or pay for it. the front lip on the f40 is now about $1k, and it is just a piece of rubber 2 mtrs long!

    in the 1 million pound range, i think the best advice given so far is the 918.
    yes it has abundant electronics, and no it does not have a manual transmission, but it has all the other things you are looking for and will likely give you the least trouble, with the biggest visual and visceral impact.

    Roman, stand back a little and look at the responses you have gotten......even the guys who are totally in love with the f40 and the cgt, have years of experience with the cars, and even specifically experience using them on long haul rides, are telling you not to consider them for your purposes..... :)
     
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  17. RomanD'

    RomanD' Karting

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    #17 RomanD', May 17, 2020
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
    Yes, definitely a lot quality responses and food for thought.

    Re valet parking, front lip and other minor parking accidents a risk with any expensive car. Over 7 years of owning V12 Ferraris and very liberal use of valet services in London and SoF (only decent places I know well though), I only had one accident when the valet touched another car with a front bumper. Poor guy almost had a heart attack since I was standing right in front. Ended with a tiny scuff on PPF. To be perfectly honest, as much as I don’t like to valet park my cars, I tend to do a lot more damage myself. CGT seems to be completely different story with its fancy clutch though.

    Being able to drive your car to dinners kind of maximises experience and is not just about showing off. I can tell you that if you are lucky with traffic and picky with a route, driving from cap-ferrat to hostellerie jerome or chèvre d’or is one hell of an appetiser, especially if you take a little detour. Same in Austrian alps.
     
  18. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2001
    3,512
    Yes. Make sure to run it periodically so the system remains charged.
     
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  19. RomanD'

    RomanD' Karting

    Nov 5, 2012
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    Roman
    Thank you! :)
     
  20. Andial

    Andial Formula Junior

    Jun 19, 2016
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  21. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    some valet's are more careful than others....
    fond memories of chevre d'or......**** parking tho ;)
     
  22. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Correct, I second that.
     
  23. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
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    CGT was always stressful to drive for me, especially before the updated tires came out. the f40 is bliss at all speeds. For me the f40 is the top and then there is everything else. i will never sell the f40. i sold the cgt after about 7 years...its on the buy again list but its nowhere near what an f40 is, for me.
     
  24. Twosherpaz

    Twosherpaz Formula Junior
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    Feb 25, 2014
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    I have both and would not want to use either in the way you intend. F40 is difficult ingress and egress. CGT clutch for a valet? Not in this lifetime.

    For a manual exotic, whilst not a million dollar car, might I suggest a Barchetta? Truly a classic cruiser with three pedals.

    If willing to eschew three pedals, no doubt my choice for your intentions would be the F12 TdF, a modern masterpiece.
     
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  25. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
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    All good points. 612 is what id choose for hours at a time.
     

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