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Discussion in 'F1' started by DF1, Sep 19, 2020.
Because in F1, 90% of the performance comes from a multi-million £££ car.
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Toto Wolff has slammed suggestions from Red Bull and Ferrari that Formula 1 should introduce a system for power unit performance convergence in 2022, saying it would be "an insult".
F1 is currently weighing up a possible engine development freeze from 2022 in order to allow Red Bull to keep using Honda's power units after the Japanese manufacturer's exit from the series at the end of next year.
Ferrari revealed on Friday that it was no longer against to the engine freeze, leaving only Renault in opposition to the plans.
Both Ferrari F1 chief Mattia Binotto and Red Bull team boss Christian Horner said there would need to be a mechanism in place for power unit convergence, ensuring there were no huge differences in performance under a freeze.
Mercedes team principal Wolff previously claimed that balance of performance-style systems had "no place" in F1, and said on Saturday that he saw no difference to that in Binotto and Horner's proposal.
"I don't see any difference, and I think this would be the beginning of the end [of F1]," Wolff said.
"The power unit is not only measured by the sheer max power, but it is subject to drivability, to weight, to cooling, and introducing a simple formula that fits all isn't possible.
"It's not something that Mercedes would endorse."
It seems the teams want parity with the engines.........Wolff is unhappy....along with Renault.
I think they do not know what they want - unless an advantage is gained lol
Red Bull team principal Christian Horner and Mercedes chief Toto Wolff would both back a delay of Formula 1's increased use of biofuels planned for 2022.
F1 is currently pushing to increase the sustainability of its fuels, with the existing level of biofuel components required to be used by teams standing at 5.75%.
Under the 2022 regulations that were originally planned for 2021, this figure will rise to 10%, but there are already plans for F1 to use 100% sustainable fuels upon the introduction of the next generation of power units.
The discussion around using the E10 fuel comes amid the consideration of a possible engine freeze for the 2022 season, which is being chased by Red Bull so it can continue to use Honda's power units upon its F1 exit.
Mercedes has stated its support for an engine development freeze for 2022, on the condition that no convergence mechanism for power unit performance is implemented, despite desires from Ferrari and Red Bull.
Wolff said that as part of the talks, Mercedes was "actually pretty neutral whether we do E10 or whether we don't", believing it to be "just a small step".
Red Bull team boss Horner felt the addition of another development factor would only complicate the proposed engine freeze for 2022, defeating the object of halting development.
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"My preference would be probably not to do the E10 fuel," Horner said when asked by Autosport about his position on its introduction.
"It's a development direct requirement for 2022, and [we'd prefer to] just bring in a completely sustainable core fuel with a new engine [instead of] going another 5% on the E10 for the current fuel.
"I'm not sure it's a huge message, whereas 2026 - which may become 2025 - is if it's a fully-sustainable fuel.
"There will be consequences to introducing that fuel and that consequence obviously is inevitably costly."
The FIA delivered its first barrels of fully-sustainable fuel to F1's engine manufacturers earlier this month, giving a sample with which to conduct further research.
A deal to bring forward the planned new power units - which must be designed to work with the 100% sustainable fuel - to 2025 ties in with the engine freeze talks, but still faces opposition from Renault.
Much as it pains me to say it, on this point Horner (or whoever is pulling his strings this time) is quite correct. Going to E10 is a big 'so what', while 100% sustainable biofuel – ideally from waste feedstocks – is a real advance with a positive message. Introducing 100% biofuel alongside the new engine regulations in 2025 is the way to go. Forget the E10 step.
It will save RedBull from more required modifications to an engine system they cannot afford to develop now as well. It is a touch more to benefit the cost problem RedBull face with the lack of PU they build themselves. It does make sense overall but I see this as a short term deflection as well for RedBull. Meredes might save a bit of funding as well of course with a delay.
At the cost F1 "gasoline" is manufactured, one could take coal and water and heat to manufacture gasoline to the same specification the engines currently use--no ethanol or methanol is needed. Alternately, one could take trees and burn them into charcoal, and use that source of carbon for the FT process, too. Both are completely sustainable.
(See Fischer Tropsche)
I didn't say Red Bull were being sincere, only that in this particular case the rationalisation of their typically self-serving position makes sense.
Yes was my feeling as well. It sounds such but its more of a symptom they have with respect to the PU as a whole. Its really about Redbull nothing else lol
Vettel on the future of biofuels in F1 and F1 hybrids crossing over into production cars:
excerpts from the interview(translated from German):
Vettel: "An amount of 10% of biofuel will only become mandatory in F1 from 2022. As things stand today, it will only rise to 30% with the new engine regulations. That would be from 2025/2026 at the earliest. I find that very very disappointing."
Vettel: "Because by 2025 there will surely be fuel stations for everyone that sell fuel from 100% renewable energies. Where is F1's pioneering role in the field of technology?"
Vettel: "We have the most efficient internal combustion engine in the world but it is of no use to the world, because the way we use it will never find its way into series production."
Vettel: "The only thing that is transferred is the brand message, because the hybrid engine is considered much more positive for the environmental balance than the normal combustion engine. The disappointing thing is that we are not taking our chance."
Vettel: "F1 could be a pioneer in technology again after a long time. I think it is precisely this pioneering role that can ensure the survival of our sport."
Vettel: "F1 should channel its competitive spirit, ambition, knowledge, development speed in such a way that relevant technologies are developed for everyone. For example, that synthetic fuels can also be bought at the fuel station at a reasonable price."
Vettel: "I mean the decision to race with 10% biofuel in 2022 is not an innovation. Why is F1 so behind? There is a great opportunity to authentically secure its existence. But that is being ignored.."
Maybe because of the high development costs?
Vettel: "F1 has always cost a lot of money. And competition and ambition have always opened up enough wallets so far.."
Do politics play a role because nobody wants to give up their advantage?
Vettel: "That seems to be the case. The seriousness of the situation is not understood. I find that frustrating. We know better, yet we don't do it. This is how we seal our disappearance into irrelevance."
Vettel: "We [F1] are first and foremost an entertainment company. But there are things that no longer fit into our time. As a global sport, we have an appropriate platform to present exemplary accents worldwide and to convey a message."
Vettel: "Individual strategies of racing teams, one wants to produce the best battery, the other the best hybrid, are of little use to us. F1 needs an overall strategy. I think we have ignored the topic of environmental technology as a development area for too long."
Vettel: "In some races, fighter jets fly over the finishing straight, an empty commercial aircraft fly over the starting grid. Some sponsors use it for advertising, some countries perhaps to demonstrate their power. I think it's outdated and a pointless waste of resources."
Who knew Seb was so insightful and astute on this topic?
Maybe Seb should retire from driving, that would save fuel. Maybe Seb should be named as F1's Green Advisor.
As suggested by many over the years:
Red Bull considering building its own engine
To stay competitive they need to have their own system in the long run. If they are long term in F1 its a rational state to attain as a producer. Fully will only have themselves to blame for a non competitive status over time.
Perez might aid in that dept. He has Mercedes PU knowledge.
Marko has made no secret that the additional appeal of Perez is Mercedes knowledge chassis and motor
Not much for future with older F1 V10 etc.
Formula 1 could become an energy battleground in the future that will keep it at the cutting edge of technology, according to Renault team boss Cyril Abiteboul.
As discussions start about the framing of new hybrid engines rules from 2026 at the latest, there has been an increased focus on how best F1 can remain attractive to fans and manufacturers.
The new regulations will offer the chance for F1 to map out potential new technologies in engine development, fuels and batteries.
One of the key directions F1 wants to take is in being at the forefront of sustainable fuel development, which it believes could bring huge benefits to the environment while a majority of road cars continue to run with internal combustion engines.
For Abiteboul, whose Renault bosses are fully recommitted to F1 beyond the team's rebranding as Alpine in 2021, the possibilities for the sport over the next few years are hugely exciting.
PLUS: Why Renault's new 'car guy' CEO couldn't pull plug on F1
"I think that there is a very interesting sort of area that is going to open for energy development," explained Abiteboul.
"I think Formula 1 will become a sport all about energy, what type of fuel do we want, what type of battery do we want to use also.
Sounds like Vettel should apply his talents to Formula E.
F1, as a whole, is a pointless waste of resources - but that didn't stop Mr. Vettel of collecting multi-million euro pay-checks, making him capable of buying 30 year-old Williams F1 cars and 60 year-old Ferrari 250 Californias, both very noisy and polluting cars.
I think the vacuum cleaners of FE would suit him better, like the previous Fchatter wrote.
Yes in the state of our environment he should pay it all back His salary. Now he continues to race for Aston. A failure at Ferrari is all he is now.
Jeez when did Vettel become a dreary eco-hippy.
That would be quite something if they do end up doing that. A big statement. Something the likes of Mclaren never achieved.
After having made his submission to Lewis in the ritual imposed by the latter of genuflection, he also transforms himself into a multimillionaire lecturer. It is disappointing on the human level.
Always wondered why they never tried to develop their own engine.