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Electrical gremlins

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by 4heid, Sep 22, 2019.

  1. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

    Jul 31, 2019
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    Chris
    As a new owner of a TR I am ecstatic. However, my first ride reminded me of the gremlins that lurk in these cars after making a quick stop and encountering a heat soaked starter.

    With that said, i read through the forums and immediately obtained the CE electric relay that was suggested and wired it in. Considering it was new to me I wanted to set a baseline so I also put in a new battery.

    On my first start after the relay install, it started much better with a much louder click than I had heard before. I warmed it up, drove it for a few and then took it back home to test the hot start issues. It didnt start, just lots of loud clicking from the starter that was clearly now getting a lot more power than before.

    On that note, I wanted to ask for some reference values as I still havent located the testing parameters and resistance values for many of the electrical bits.

    Thus far I have tested the following:
    1. The tachometric relay does not appear to be functioning. Energizing it out of the car does not provide any click. Jumping terminals 30 and 87 in the fuse box does not allow it start either, but I do hear the fuel system activating, which doesnt happen with the relay installed. However, with 30 and 87 jumped, I dont get the starter click. With the relay installed I get the starter click but no start. Either way I confirmed it doesnt work in terms of closing the circuit.
    2. Flywheel sensors (TDC and speed I believe): both ranged from 725-735 ohms.
    3. Thermo time switch: 60 ohms - seems high no?
    4. Water temp sensor (behind TTS): 25 kohms
    5. Protection relay in black box: Something inside is loose and is rattling around but when I energize it, the switch clicks so it appears functional. I also jumped 30 and 87 on the socket and it did not allow the engine to start. I also tested the other relay next to it that looks like the TTS and it closed when energized.

    Does anyone have the manual and page where those values are? I cant search the manual I have downloaded thus far quickly and wanted to get the values of all important sensors, etc to test.

    Thanks a lot and I look forward to being a part of the community.
     
    Natkingcolebasket69 likes this.
  2. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    romano schwabel
    when the starter solenoid at the starter make klick and the starter no turn round then the starter itself is the problem or bad connection.
    so meassure the voltage between battery - and starter + and also between starter - and battery +
     
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  3. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

    Jul 31, 2019
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    Normally its the case but with the TTS issue having occurred at the same time it was hard to fathom that the starter would now have died since it started momentarily prior with no sign of issue or weakness then displayed this. Due to the myriad of other concerns its hard to believe its just one thing well.
     
  4. 302Tim

    302Tim Formula 3
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    Agree with Romano--the things you are checking could affect a "spins but doesn't start" problem but what you describe sounds like a "won't spin/crank" problem. Does it crank/start when cold but not (or intermittently) when hot?
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    #5 Steve Magnusson, Sep 22, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
    What year/version TR? (Your list of components suggests it is a US version, but please confirm). You need a copy of the 330/84 TR WSM for reference (for any year/version) and, if a US version, a copy of the chapter D supplement for TR with cat converters (I can post a Dropbox link for this if yours is a US version TR)

    Some initial comments:

    1. It's strange that the presence/absence of the tachometric relay would have any effect on the starter operation. When you say: "Energizing it out of the car does not provide any click", Do you know that it takes three signals to energize it in either Mode 1 or Mode 2?
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    The best way IMO to confirm/deny the tachometric operation is to make a voltage measurement on the violet wire in the x connector:
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    2. Those resistance values are good (Diagnosis Sheet N. 1 indicates a 600-1000 Ohms spec)
    3. It is not meaningful to measure the resistance between the two terminals of the thermo-time switch. What's more important is that when cold (like 80 deg F or less), the resistance from the W terminal to to the body of thermo-time switch is near 0 ohms, and, when warm, it will have a higher resistance equal to the sum of the two internal heaters (see page D18 in the TR WSM).
    4. Again, measuring the resistance between the two terminals of the dual channel water temp thermister is not quite right. Measure from one terminal to the body and then from the other terminal to the body. This figure shows how to make this measurement at each unplugged injection ECU and the graph from Diagnosis Sheet N. 6 for what the resistance for each should be versus temperature:
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    5. Do this voltage measurement at the red wire on the water thermoswitch on the side of the coolant Y-pipe to confirm/deny if the protection relay is working:
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  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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  7. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

    Jul 31, 2019
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    Steve,
    Phenomenal info on the relay. I did triple energize it and got a click but only once.
    With that said, I removed the starter from the car and tested it on the bench and there lies the bigger issue.
    When connected to a car battery, the voltage drop was from 12.6V to 8V then to 6V at which point it stopped spinning.
    It was basically on its last leg and thus the intermittent problems which lacked consistency.
    I am going to start with replacing that and hope the rest is ok for now.
    It seems Rockauto has a great price on a reman replacement for now, only $212.
     
  8. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    this is what I have mentioned in post 2 here -starter problem itself
     
  9. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

    Jul 31, 2019
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    So new starter installed, battery charged and nothing.....except for the same click click click.....
    I jumped the fuel pump relays and they noticeably start priming.
    I also performed the starter pin 30 to 15a jump with the motor off, ignition on and do hear a noise but its not the loud whooshing sound I hear when I jump the fuel pump relay. But the relay in the right rear black box does click.
     
  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    One thing to do here is unplug/inspect/replug the w and y connectors at the fuse-relay panel -- in both, there is a large white wire that conveys the start command signal from terminal 50 of the ignition switch to terminal 50 of the starter solenoid. Previously, you measured the voltage on terminal 50 of the starter solenoid while trying to crank the starter -- you should measure that again and the voltage at the white wire in the w connector (while plugged in) to ground and the white in the y connector (while plugged in) to ground.

    There are many relays in the right rear black box -- are you sure it is the protection relay (the one with the fuse) that is clicking during that test? When doing the "starter pin 30 to 15a jump with the motor off, ignition on" have you measured the voltage on the violet wire in the x connector?
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    Photo detail of white wires in w and y connectors:
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    Should've added that unplugging/inspecting/replugging the 9-pin C11 connector under the coolant expansion tank is something else to do/check.
     
  12. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

    Jul 31, 2019
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    Steve,
    I have seen those pics before and will attempt. I need to find someone to crank so I can test at the moment.
    I just checked the spark wires and #6 is showing 28 kOhms, definitely not a good start.
     
  13. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

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    A quick update:
    •I have rechecked all plug wires and in general after cleaning some up I obtain from 0.8 kOhms to 2.8 kOhms.
    •The coil plug wire to the spring loaded center pin shows about 0.5-0.6 ohms.
    •The spark plugs look 'newish' and have a gap of .025
    •The cap and rotor doesnt look bad, no oil, no dirt, the same thickness
    •I have disconnected all plugs in the bay, cleaned them thoroughly and lubricated them with a conductive metal lubricant for electronics and will let them dry overnight.
     
  14. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

    Jul 31, 2019
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    Steve,
    I performed step 4 above for the water/coolant temp sensor and there appears to be an issue.
    Testing the ECU connector closer to the front of the car at its 2 and 21 pins I get 7.35 kOhms.
    Testing the ECU connector closer to the rear of the car I get OL and then if I move the pins around inside the connector I get an unstable figure around 15 M Ohms.
    If I move the connector on top of the sensor while testing the resistance at the ECU connector the values fluctuate so it could be a loose cable.
    Thoughts?
     
  15. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    That's not good. Have you made the same measurements at the unplugged water thermister (i.e., one male tab to the brass body, and other male tab to the brass body)? If those both measure OK, then agree that it's a bad connection/flaky wire issue somewhere. If you get the same bad result on the thermister itself = you'll need to buy a new one (I have the Bosch PN as 0280130032 if you want to avoid the Ferrari Tax).
     
  16. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

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    I just completed the starter 30 to 15A, ignition ON jump test. I did not record 12V at the violet wire up front or at the water thermoswitch.
    All I got was a small, fluctuating mV value.
    I did confirm that the protection relay is switching, as well as 1 of the small relays during the jump test.
    I do hear the fuel pumps and smell fuel when doing this as well.
     
  17. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

    Jul 31, 2019
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    I just checked the water/coolant temp sensor, male pin to brass body and got nearly identical readings, 7.28 kOhms and 20 kOhms respectively.
    Thus, its dead.
     
  18. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

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    I tested the Thermo Time Switch, each male pin to engine block and obtained the values of 61 Ohms and 1.6 Ohms for each pin.
    That appears to most likely be poor as well, no?
     
  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    No, that's probably OK if at room temperature.

    Do you have your starter motor working?
     
  20. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    Don't see how any of that is possible as the protection relay can't close if that violet wire doesn't go +12V nor would the fuel pump relays close (which you report they do) -- are you sure you are on the correct violet wire in the x connector (and are measuring to a good ground point)?
    Not getting +12V on the red wire at the water thermoswitch is a fatal flaw that must be corrected. Do you have a copy of the 509/88 US TR wiring diagram? If the protection relay is actually working (i.e., terminal 87 on the protection relay goes +12V, but the red wire at the water thermoswitch doesn't go +12V = most likely a bad connection in the large round C12 connector on the black triangular box.
     
  21. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

    Jul 31, 2019
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    I replaced the starter entirely.
    As for the violet and the thermoswitch, I used a local chassis ground. I re-positioned it a few times but anything is possible. A few of the tests have required re-positioning.
    I did not test the 87 terminal on the protection relay, I only felt it for the click.

    I am doing all of these with the ignition ON but without the engine running while performing the starter jump from 30 to 15a.
     
  22. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

    Jul 31, 2019
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    ok, I rechecked during the starter jump test. The results on this car are very tough to confirm. The connections need to be cleaned and perfected, as well as quite tight with the multimeter to get a good reading.
    Thus, I confirm 12V at the 87 terminal of the protection relay and 12V at the red terminal of the water thermoswitch upon jumping.

    It seems as if the water temp sensor is the big issue at the moment.
     
  23. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

    Jul 31, 2019
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    I obtained the new coolant temp sensor and have it installed.
    While replacing that I removed the TTS and checked resistance again.
    The W terminal shows 1.3 Ohms and the G terminal 61.2 Ohms.
    I know W is supposed to be close to 0, is 1.3Ohms poor enough to warrant replacement or to cause poor start issues?
     
  24. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    I wouldn't be too worried about the thermoswitch contacts in the W path of the TTS being 1~2~3 Ohms -- it is in series with the U relay internal coil which has a much higher resistance (the U relay fires the cold start injectors). If you want to do a functional check, just put a finger on the relay U outer case -- during the first cold cranking event, it should click closed immediately and then click open a few seconds later during continued cranking (or when you release the ignition switch from start to run). Alternatively, you can unplug one of the cold start injectors and measure the DC voltage between the two terminals during the first cold cranking event -- should go +12V immediately and then 0V after a few seconds of cranking (or when you release the ignition switch from start to run).
     
  25. 4heid

    4heid Rookie

    Jul 31, 2019
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    Got it.
    So everything in the engine compartment seems to check out for the moment, except perhaps the alternator.
    With the car parked I am seeing a big drain.
    I have performed 2 tests, the series negative battery cable connection, which showed about 2.6A and the test light illumination across the negative terminal.
    However, upon pulling every fuse, neither of them show any marked reduction.
    The light does not dim and the meter only shows a gradual reduction in amperage as time goes on. Over a few minutes you will watch the drain go from 2.6A to 1.8A, for example.
    Have you seen any drain such as this that was not caused by the fuses? Perhaps the alternator diode or some ECU connection?
    I did remove all of the ECU connections on the passenger side rear as well but not immediate reduction in amperage.
     

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