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Do anyone know about the oldest surviving Ferrari ?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Sellatease, Feb 25, 2020.

  1. Sellatease

    Sellatease Rookie

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    I am curious a bit to know the Ferrari that has survived ages and the value now.

    If you know about that, you can post the photos too if you can.
     
  2. Mimmo Blue

    Mimmo Blue Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2018
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    Technically this is is the oldest surviving Ferrari.
    The Auto Avio Costruzioni 815.
    Ferrari built 2 cars after leaving Alfa Romeo.
    Only 1 remains. This is that car.
    I had trouble sleeping for the next 2 days after seeing this.

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  3. EnzoItaly

    EnzoItaly Karting
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    In which collection is it?
     
  4. Sellatease

    Sellatease Rookie

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    This is awesome thnaks. I will search more on this car. I am curious to know every detail of it.
     
  5. Mimmo Blue

    Mimmo Blue Formula Junior

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    It is part of a collection owned by Mario Righini in Italy.
     
  6. David_S

    David_S F1 Veteran
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    Oldest surviving Ferrari?

    Surely that would be Piero?
     
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  7. SCantera

    SCantera Formula 3
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    Actually the AC 815 was racing 7 years before Peiro was born [1947]. The first owner was Alberto Ascari. The current owner showed our group the original title!

    And yes this car is in Mario Righini's amazing collection outside of Modena. The 300(?) car collection is on the first floor of a 6ok sf castle. I have seen the collection 3 times. Some truly incredible cars. Mussolini's staff car, a Pope's V-16 Cadillac, an 1896 Mercedes vis-a-vis, an 8 liter 4 cylinder Fiat limo.....the list goes on and on. Righini's father collected scrap steel after Italy's factories and mills had been flattened by Allied bombing during WWII. As he traveled the country to pick up steel he was able to purchase significant cars for nearly nothing. The country was in a deep depression after the war and survival was the focus. This is how the collection started.

    Somewhere I have a picture of me sitting in that car. And many more photos of his collection as well as the Paninni [Maserati] collection. One day when I get organized I will start a thread or continue if there is one about the Righini collection.
     
  8. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    What may seem like a simple question has a far more complex answer.

    The 815 is an interesting candidate or the correct answer but the reality is that it is not a Ferrari automobile. It is an AAC because at that time Enzo was still under his separation agreement with Alfa Romeo that precluded him from using his name for a car. So, created by Enzo Ferrari using a Fiat based engine, but since it is named a Ferrari does it really qualify?

    The link for 002 makes a claim and has certain validity to it. Yes, it was built by Enzo Ferrari, branded as a Ferrari from day one and used a motor of all Ferrari creation. 002 is the oldest Ferrari in its as created engine and chassis (but a recreated body).

    Now we can get murkier on what is or isn't older. Pre-002 was 01C and 02C (with some dispute if there was a 03C or not). They were built and raced and were the first Ferrari branded cars ever built. But they do not exist as 01C or 02C. It is believed that each came back to the factory and were recycled into new cars with updated engines (from 125 to 166), received new bodies and were re-numbered. Allegedly 01C became 010. If true, this would predate 002 but then one has to deal with the question if the factory recycles and renumbers a car is it really what it once was.

    Welcome to murky world of the earliest couple of years (1947 and 1948) of Ferrari as a manufacturer of cars in his own name.
     
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  9. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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  10. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Whatever it is, I bet no one is concerned by mileage, which is liberating! :D

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  11. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    01C becoming 010 is fairly well accepted. But even accepting that it doesn't solve the question if 010 as it exists should be considered an older car than 002 which has been a complete car as 002 the whole time. One might consider that 010 has some parts that predate 002 but when 010 left the gates of Ferrari it was a later date. One might want to wiff on "first" and just say that these represent the earliest cars through 1947 and 1948 along with a couple more and their histories are so intertwined that first depends upon ones own criteria on just how much of those very original (and to what degree unmolested) parts it takes to qualify for consideration.
     
  12. SCantera

    SCantera Formula 3
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    Is this kind of like the question is the Dino a real Ferrari? Who built AC 815? Enzo built it for racing. We know that because he could not put his name on it due to a legal agreement doesn't make it any less of a Ferrari. It wasn't built by anyone else. Suppose he could have put the Ferrari badge on it. Only then it would be a Ferrari?

    Sorry....I don't mean to be obstinate. The factory has wanted to buy this car from Righini for many many years. They know it's Enzo's first.

    Or I guess maybe a Dino is not a Ferrari either. :rolleyes:
     
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  13. Mimmo Blue

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    I saw the collection in 2017. In was in the area visiting family. The day before I was coming home my cousins husband, a retired mechanic asked me if I wanted to go for a ride to a friend's place who had a couple of old cars that he helped out with once in a while now thst he was retired. He knew I was into cars, and I had told him I was in the market for an Italian car. I had nothing planned so I said sure let's go. I had no idea what I was going to see as he did not elaborated. I thought I was going to see a couple of old fiats. I picked him up and we drove about 5-10 minutes to Panzano. All of a sudden I see this castle in front of me and my cousin told me to pull over. I thought he was giving me an oppprtunty to take some pictures of this castle . He then went and knocked on the large door at the front of the castle and Mario's daughter came and answered and let us in. He still had not told me anything. My mind was drawing a blank. Where is this guy bringing me? My cousin's friend then joined us, a gentleman who works for Righini, and he proceeded to show me the collection. My head was literally spinning.
    I returned this past September and I was at the church next door for the Festa di San Luigi. We were walking in front of the castle when I heard the rumble of a car starting up and I snapped a picture of the caddy. I didn't know it was a V16, I had assumed it was a V8 with a very healthy camshaft. Sounded like pure American muscle.


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  14. tomc

    tomc F1 World Champ

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    I am sure I speak for many when I say, that would be an awesome thread!
    T
     
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  15. Mimmo Blue

    Mimmo Blue Formula Junior

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    My understanding is that there have also been offers from some collectors in some very rich nations and the response is, this car will never leave Italy, don't call here again.

    The car was also used as part of the Ferrari 90th Anniversary celebration in Milano on September 4th.
     
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  16. SCantera

    SCantera Formula 3
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    True. Righini has clearly expressed his intention to keep this important part of Enzo’s history. I also appreciate that Mario has also driven this car (more than once) in the Miglia Mille Historica.
     
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  17. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    The case with the 815 has some great points to be made and Righini's car is likely with more original elements than some of the other contenders (I am assuming that this 815 has not been rebodied or otherwise molested). One can even argue that there the intention with the 815 was that there would be a series built (like a real manufacturer) instead of just the 2 that were had it not been the start of the war. Without any doubt it is part of the story of Enzo Ferrari and the Ferrari cars. It is joined in this "story" with the Alfa Romeos of his Scuderia with a possible nod to both the bi-motore which was conceived, engineered and built in Enzo's Scuderia shops and not at Alfa.

    But, the argument against it also carries some points too. Auto-Avio Construzioni was not Ferrari. The company Ferrari as an automobile manufacturer would not start until after the war (Columbo starts design of the Ferrari 125 in summer of 1945, bodiless car in the courtyard March of 1947). This would be the first badged as Ferrari from the Ferrari company. One may also wish to make a distinction that Ferraris would be produced in Maranello, a facility that he did not occupy until 1943. Another point could be that the 815 was created using an assortment of parts from the Fiat 508C. This compares to the 125 that utilized a drivetrain and other components that were uniquely designed for and manufactured in house by Ferrari.

    Now, I do not know the corporate paperwork of AAC and Ferrari. It is possible that Ferrari was a rename of AAC but on the other hand they could be two separate entities. Maybe someone knows that corporate history tidbit.
     
  18. EnzoItaly

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    Most most probably Marcel (Massini) can shed light on this.
     
  19. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    This thread should probably be moved to the Vintage section to get more relevant input.
     
  20. BJK

    BJK Formula 3

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    'Sellatease', you are the OP (Original Post-er) hit the 'Report' button (left side, in your first Post) and request that this thread be moved to the 'Vintage' section for more relevant input. :)
    .
     
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  21. NaO

    NaO Karting

    Apr 23, 2017
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    You can’t put a price on any of these. It comes down to whatever someone is willing to pay, which is most likely absurd amounts


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  22. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    Having communicated with Luca Dal Monte and just checked his book "Enzo Ferrari, Power, Politics, and the Making of an Automotive Empire" on page 403 & 404 of the English edition, it was on Wednesday October 1, 1947 that the company was changed from Auto Avio Costruzioni to Auto Costruzioni Ferrari. There is a footnote that references Manicardi, Quel diaboloco Ferrari page 126.

    With this information it would mean that the first Ferraris through at least 002 were completed by the same company that made the 815. Others are likely to have been under construction during the name change.
     
  23. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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  24. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    Yes, using the criteria as (1) badged as a Ferrari, (2) unaltered serial number.

    Yet, that is the easiest answer when looking at this period of time.

    Does it make a difference that the company we think of as Ferrari was AAC when this car was built, as were the prior cars and likely there were some of the subsequent cars that were in various stages of build when the company officially changed to Auto Costruzioni Ferrari on October 1, 1947.

    Should 01C and 02C be part of this consideration since they exist but, as generally accepted, were recycled into 010 and 020?

    Since AAC was the entity that made 002 and the prior cars, should the remaining 815 be given "first" status or is it just a step child to 002?
     
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